What hasn't been discussed.

Can anyone provide a list of what we haven't discussed and what we could possibly discuss in the future?

Can anyone provide a list of what we haven't discussed and what we could possibly discuss in the future?....i hope one day new members will answer those questions, there are no stupid questions,
we are all on the same road, some more than others yes, but i for one would answer any query
with patience and good humour..we are ticking along ok, i'm surprised a bit by what you put, i look
forward to your posting's and hope you always find something to say!

Hi LH
As Les has said more than happy to discuss anything. My own focus at present is looking at the position of the reserve and the platform used to launch the attack on RD. Im also looking at a couple of issues from TWOTS.
But always happy to share any knowledge with any new comers.

Cheers

Well, we haven't discussed this yet: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

6pdr. That would be in the off topic section. But please go ahead and start the discussion.

Something I have always wondered about is how the Zulu army behaved after Isandhlwana. I don't mean the ritual cutting of corpses and the general looting of the camp.

I am more interested in knowing how they managed to organize themselves to clear their own dead (as far as I am aware they removed most of their dead from the field) I am sure I read that they utilized some of the wagons? They must have had thousands of wounded to deal with. Did each regiment "look after its own"?

The Zulu dead must have been spread over quite a large area. Did they retrieve them all? Were there any Zulu dead found on the battlefield?

I seem to recall reading there were some Zulu found in the camp who were seriously ill after drinking iodine? Were they just killed or taken prisoner.

I know there will be people on here who can answer these questions but thought it would be worth posting in this thread as it is something I'd always thought about.

Hi Tenedos
I believe a combination of everything you've mentioned.
A lot of the mortally wounded would have been dispatched by a close friend, the wounded either left to their own devices or assisted by a comrade. There are a lot of references, Bertram Mitford springs to mind, of seeing Zulus long after the war with horrendous wounds that had survived.
And again there are references to the dongas piled with bodies and a kraal filled with the dead. Brown mentions seeing dead Zulu covered with their shields and left on the battlefield. When the Rev George Smith visited the battle fields with rev Johnson many years after they spoke of clearing away the skeletons in order to find space to pitch camp under the ridge.
I would imagine that after the battle and the orgy of looting the regiments were pretty much exhausted and with the exception of hauling away a couple of wagons very few of the dead and wounded were transported away. As I mentioned it was probably a case of walk or die.
Any surviving Zulus still on the battlefield were undoubtably dispatched even those that found and drank the twala. No mercy would have been shown, and again there is a reference to that happening.
After the battle the impi didn't move to far away, in fact only back to their camp area of the prievious evening to rest up before the long haul back to their homes.
Im sure some one will be able to fill in the gaps.

Cheers

Hi Springy
Not to many gaps in your summary , that's basically what happened , there are several instances dispatching zulus when the camp was re- occupied , I think from memory Harford , Hamilton - Browne and a few others mention this happening . The zulu army indeed went back to their camping spot of the night / day before , then headed off to their respective places .
90th

One of the things I have read is that some of the army more or less temporarily disbanded rather than following the prior practice of reporting back to Cetshwayo at Ulundi for ritual cleansing etc... I wonder to what degree the heavy Zulu casualties caused that? It must have seemed strange to them to suffer so many dead and wounded in a victory.

Wasn't it Cetshwayo that said "A spear has been thrust into the heart of the nation." I think your right a few of the regiments didn't go directly back to Ondini they won but hell what a price to pay, in three battles lets not forget, all on the same day. Shows really just how good a soldier the Zulu were that they could come back to fight again. Some awesum damned spirit there. Big cojones I think is the phrase your countrymen are want to use.   

I have also read in Mitford etc... that after the war was concluded relations between individual Zulu and Englishman were not bitter. Of course this evidence is highly anecdotal but I do wonder how much, if any, of what eventually led to a formal policy of apartheid can be traced back to Isandlwana and the AZW. When I tell people here I think that was more of an outgrowth of large scale mining efforts I get short shrift. And indeed a Marxist would see the AZW as ultimately being about controlling indigenous labor so that the AZW was an important step in subjugating independent labor.

Not so much apartheid but yes a subjugation of a race, there was a huge difference.
The AZW was hugely affected by the mines and its labor policies. Zululand was smack in the way of the labor migration path from Mozambique. A way had to be cleared to get that labor to the free state and the southern Transvaal. So yes from that point of view there was a cause and effect situation.
Apartheid was exactly what the name says, unambiguously, separate development. No mixing of the races, and resulting in dominance with all its conatations of cheap labor and a servile working class with a job reservation system built in for white preservation. But don't make the mistake that it was started by a bunch of 'Dutchmen'. The seeds were laid long before the National party came to power.
Sorry could wax lyrically for hours on this but its pointless we now have a free country where any one with a government connection can become a tenderprenure and a multi millionare over night without doing anywork at all except slipping the odd bribe here and there. Mostly there. And of course we are lead by that ultimate paragone of virtue, free from all taints of rape robbery and ravishment ( the local equivalent of the three R's. Viva Zuma Viva. Sorry had to take a pause to wipe the spittal from the keyboard and quell the build up of stomach gass.

              

One thing which interests me, from the Zulu perspective, is that while we have information on many of the individual participants on the British or Colonial side, we have precious little on the Zulu side. I realize it might be next to impossible, since there is no real written Zulu history, but who were these people, how were they affected during and afterwards?

It could be a separate category - I would be willing to get the ball rolling if the members feel it is worthwhile, by consulting with a small group of members and compiling a "starter list" of lesser known Zulus for whom information exists. John Laband's new book, ZULU WARRIORS and others like it, can provide information for the more notable participants.

James Stuart Archive, of Oral Statements is a good place to start.

There is a new emerging underclass in South Africa!
and they are White..

The james Stuart archives is the perfect place to start.

Thanks springbok9. I read Mitford's book but it was many years ago. I also seem to recall hm speaking to a Zulu who was present at Isandhlwana and had 11 wounds?

It does say a lot about the Zulu spirit that they lost so many men and still found the motivation to fight again at the later battles.

diancast, that was a very worthy post, i have studied the Amazulu for a
long time now! you see again i say, i was 10 when i saw the film ZULU..
and after i had ' sneaked ' in for the umpteenth time that month i was
left feeling a mixture of things! i of course felt great admiration for the
British Garrison but i also felt fascinated by the marvellous and Beautiful
and yet terrifying people which were the Zulu!..

Now one thing left a worrying nag in my mind, and that was the statement
at the end by the Bromhead character, who when asked how he felt by
Chard answered " i feel ashamed". i never forgot that remark and it was not
to be many years before i had ' joined the dots ' so to speak.and understood
what he had meant by that..their are a few like minded people on this forum
who understand the absolute tragedy of that loathsome invasion, but the
vast majority of people on all forums and discussions i have witnessed and
indeed have taken part in have no interest in the Zulu people! unless they are
used as a conduit to the things they really want to discuss! reading that back
before i post, well it sounds very harsh, but it is i'm afraid a reality..

A nicely put comment Les. This could be an interesting topic.

Tenedos, there are a couple of other similar books. I will put a couple of titles together over the weekend.
Cheers

Frank,      

dlancast wrote:

One thing which interests me, from the Zulu perspective, is that while we have information on many of the individual participants on the British or Colonial side, we have precious little on the Zulu side.  I realize it might be next to impossible, since there is no real written Zulu history, but who were these people, how were they affected during and afterwards?

It could be a separate category - I would be willing to get the ball rolling if the members feel it is worthwhile, by consulting with a small group of members and compiling a "starter list" of lesser known Zulus for whom information exists.  John Laband's new book, ZULU WARRIORS and others like it, can provide information for the more notable participants.

Volume II of Adrian Greaves & Ian Knight's WHO'S WHO IN THE ZULU WAR covers the Colonials and Zulus. That's a start. I have found Laband to be as specific as he can be over the body of his work. One of my favorite volumes about the AZW is BLACK SOLDIERS OF THE QUEEN by P.S. Thompson because it covers a group even more overlooked than the others: the black colonial forces. And finally, though he takes a lot of stick in this forum, I think THE WASHING OF THE SPEARS was actually far ahead of most histories of colonial warfare written in its time where it came to trying to get the perspective from across the river.

No argument from me 6pdr, i was swept along from virtually
the first couple of paragraphs! and that was long long ago,
to paraphrase the title of another book for people to consider
when studying the people of the heavens.. TWOTS i have had
to defend on a continual basis, the detractors point to his
' glaring errors ' and lack of sources and foot notes.. to me
this completely misses the point, and then some! the breadth,
the scope, the sheer majesty and power in which he weaves
the epic which was Africa in the early and closing of the nine-
teenth century, and i am not naive to think he did it all from a
desk in Berlin, that guy had some serious contacts!. but i guess
it did more than wrinkle the noses of ' British History Acedemia '
that this upstart American could produce such a monumental
work.. whilst previous to that all they produced was dry and
dusty dogma embedding entrenched views! Yes Jackson in my
opinion nailed Isandhlwana exact, no need to look any further!.
but that was just one Battle re-examined..( thank God he did!)
but Morris..c'mon, thats Cecil B DeMillie!. the net is there for
you guys saying who! think EPIC.   

Well said Les. Agree 100%.

Steve

"6pdr"
 One of my favorite volumes about the AZW is BLACK SOLDIERS OF THE QUEEN by P.S. Thompson because it covers a group even more overlooked than the others: the black colonial forces. [/quote]

Bonsoir 6pdr,
On this specific subject, i do like "The commandants: the leadership of the NNC in the AZW" by Keith I SMITH (thesis)
Cheers

Frédéric[/quote]

Steve   .. Admin could you add
a high five emote?   

Hi xhosa / Steve
I tend to agree with you , Morris as we now know may have made several errors and possibly invented a couple of others , but it didnt stop me from recently buying another copy of TWOTS , as my 1974 paperback has seen better days !. Plus it had a different cover depicting Isandlwana which I hadnt seen previously ! . Lets not forget it was compiled before the days of PC's and from a desk , in his office , in
Berlin , although , I think he did make a trip / trips to Sth Africa ? , happy to be corrected   
90th

90th/Les/Steve
I would agree on the compass of TWOTS but surely it has to go into the same melting pot as 'ZULU'. a glorious semi fictional account that inspired massive interest. I would also chuck in HCMDB as well for its similar approach.
Its taken years, and will take more, to try and separate fact from fiction with Morris, hence my thread of Quethuka. So while I do ( like Gary ) have a few different copies of TWOTS I cant elevate it to the same pedestal as you guys. And yes he did spend time in Natal, quite a lot and spoke to the best AZW Brains around.

Cheers Guys

Sorry could quite easily have added 'Mary Seacole' to the same bucket.

  
( That should raise some eye brows )   

springbok9 wrote:

Sorry could quite easily have added 'Mary Seacole' to the same bucket.

  
( That should raise some eye brows )   

With you all the way there.

Not good when myth (or lies) is pedaled as fact in schools.

Last time I mentioned her I was told in pretty blatant terms how much of a racist I was. Glad to see Prof McDonald has got into print with 'The making of the myth.'
But that aside, Morris / Baker are just as guilty as the politicians and politically correct do gooders.

Cheers

PS My accuser from last time is still a forum member, if your going to attack me do it in the open this time.

I would agree on the compass of TWOTS but surely it has to go into the same melting pot as 'ZULU'. a glorious semi fictional account that inspired massive interest. I would also chuck in HCMDB as well for its similar approach......says springbok...

So the objection is the ' lies ' ( thats well strong ) error's and What? again think of the time
of publication and think of what went before! and more importantly....what came after! The amount
of sheer hard spadework put in by morris is staggering!,in my opinion most authors that followed
leeched on all his hard graft and as modern researchers uncovered fresh information this was inserted
as and when it arose for their next book! always looking for a new angle/slant to rehash what has been
in the public domain for 130 odd years..99 percent of TWOTS is an honest account of events before, up to and including the AZW. all in logical sequence event by event, up even to 1906.

I am no Morris apologist, but if i was to have only one book on my desert island!

Not sure how the Black Nightingale is coupled with Morris!

Hi Les
The 'Black Nightingale' was included because virtually everything about her is wrong. She was an opportunist and sales woman nothing more. She really is a myth propagated by books and printed material. Morris told a story that HAD been told before, although not in one volume. He linked together known facts added in some myths he picked up along the way ( as in the Coffin Rock, picked up from George Bunting) and linked it together with a fabled story line. So yes give the guy his due for what he did but no more than that, he really doesnt deserve sainthood. Baker created a myth ( Ask Martin for complete chapter and verse   ) and its been accepted around the world as fact. My bank manager came to call yesterday, wants to know when Im going to pay back all the money I owe him, While here he looked at my wall and saw a photo of Rorkes Drift, first thing out of his mouth was "Ah yes that bunch of Welsh men". Mike Snook puts together a brilliant hypothesis of the course of the battle, really brilliant, then adds conversations  and movements that are impossible to verify so creating another series of myths.
The mere fact that you can classify Seacole as the Black Nightingale really proves my point pretty conclusively.

Cheers Mate

I'm still with Les on this. For all of its errors, if there could only be one book on the subject it would still be TWOTS for me. It's simple really, it makes you want to turn the page.

I can't think of another that does that. Even though there are more accurate accounts, they come across as primarily for anoraks (which I proudly count myself among!) factually correct but hardly spellbinding. Ian Knight probably comes  closest on writing skill.

I don't think you can bracket Morris and Baker together - there is bucket loads of history and perception in Morris while there is precious little of either in Baker.

On Seacole, I can live with the hyp and applaud the idea of a role model, but I too object to the opportunist politicisation and particularly to the denigration of FN.

Steve

So yes give the guy his due for what he did but no more than that, he really doesnt deserve sainthood......says springbok..

Sorry springbok i find that a bit one dimensional!, i at no time advocated
his canonization, all i was asking is for the book to be looked at ' in the round ' and as
for Mary Secole...well the Daily Mail did its usual gutter, white middle class racist hatchet
job! Mary brought comfort to the sick and dying!!! so she was a business women to boot!
at a time when the British Army froze because crooked army contractors profiteered!money
being their only goal. not suffering troops far from home..i see this too'ing and fro'ing over
history all the time, of course it sickens me, but it also raises a grim smile. self service has
always been one of the least attractive sides of human nature. it is now taught in English
schools at an introductory level, those with more than half a wit, as they grow older will
learn ALL the perceived ' truths ' and sift out the garbage themselfs...The Daily Mail..i would
laugh it it was'nt so dammed dangerous, a sop to keep the unintelligent misinformed! the
ones who can think would not take that tripe as gospel.. the full article, you have to look
very carefully for the grudging praise..was it because she was Black...yes it was!.


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Sorry Steve, i read your post as it crossed, but did'nt amend because
i wanted to answer you direct. i in defending Secole in no way
detract from the heroine Nightingale was. i admired her as soon as i understood
her story from a very early stage, been to st thomas's when my family were in
there, saw the statue, and the little museum, there needs a balance striking
here..too very different women should not be maligned by anybody to suit hidden
agendas, lets celebrate both these remarkable women.

Greetings Les
Sorry didn't mean to malign Seacole, merely to use her to emphasise the perils of taking the written word to literally. She has become a heroin for no other reason than the politically correct scions needed a black persona to celebrate. And that's in no way an insult just telling it like it is. Ive just read your Daily Mail clip, but I would advise reading the profs book rather than the popular press.
In regard to Morris I don't believe a historical writer can be lauded just because hes a good story teller. if your going to do that then David Rattray is your man, never let history get in the way of a good story, and that I heard from his own mouth.
Unfortunatly we are all consumed, is that the right word, by this war because of its minutae and detail, its personalities, the politics etc. to do that justice one has to rise above 'the story line' and look for the actuality. Sure enjoy Morris but only the same way you enjoy Baker.
Huge swarths of Morris are repetition, not copies, of Ritter, Binns, Kirby, Cory, Theal, Copeland and Atkinson. All of whom he had access to. Without touching the internet I could reproduce the exact same history within a few months, I would of course use a touch of artistic licence to fill in the gaps, exactly as he did. And its those gaps that create the problems, so much so that I don't believe they can be dismissed just because the rest of the book is a good read. TWOTS served its purpose as a vehicle to gain access into the world of eChaka , Dingiswayo and Cetshwayo, no more and no less.
Sorry to disagree my friend, I do know how passionate you are about the subject. But there are two sides to most things ( except for my wifes opinions and there, there is only one. )   

Cheers Mate

Without touching the internet I could reproduce the exact same history within a few months, I would of course use a touch of artistic licence to fill in the gaps,....not without a time machine you could'nt!
you was 19?....hindsight is a wonderful notion! he got there first, and he did have to plough through
all that dusty dross to draw out the non fiction. and make it truly readable for the first time for a long
time. Hattersley, Bryant, and Binn's, it is what it is Frank, to each i guess something different.

it is what it is Frank, to each i guess something different

Would be a bloody boring old world if we all thought the same though wouldn't it   

sorry i meant to say..

Ive just read your Daily Mail clip, but I would advise reading the profs book rather than the popular press.

Not my clip frank, i have not read or bought a news paper for news or opinion for about thirty years,
except commemoratives, ie, lennon got shot, city win the title, again!  

Would be a bloody boring old world if we all thought the same though wouldn't it ...amen to that bro!   

What a wise man Burt was! re today..Israel and Palestine,
that mess is so sad!.

Xhosa2000 - thanks for the kind words. As it happens I received the first of the four volumes of the James Stuart Archive this morning. It should prove to be a good source of info on the "common man" as it were of the Zulu. Perhaps between it and some others, we can get a better picture of the other side of the coin.

Good afternoon diancast, i hope you enjoy learning about
the Zulu over the coming months! yes it is an excellent
resource, you have four, you have one to go! there is five
in the current set, with number 6 in the pipeline, but one
of the co authors died so vol 6 is not expected anytime soon!

As you will discover the Zulu are a remarkable people, the
British marvelled at their discipline in the AZW war, but the
more you come to know them you will realize that discipline
under pins and runs through their whole society.

springbok will post some suggested reading for your information,
these few book i can highly recommend, maybe some will be free
to read online.. The Zulu People, A T Bryant, The Diary of Henry
Francis Fynn, The Life and Times of Daniel Lindley E W Smith, The
Story of the Zulu's J Y Gibson, Later Annals of Natal A F Hattersley,
The Social System of the Zulu's E J Krige, Charles Johnson of Zulu-
Land A W Lee, anything by Peter Becker, and lots by Rider Haggard.
yes " the other side of the coin" i'm all for that! lastly, its easy being
nice, if people let you!   

Hi xhosa
Dont forget ' From the Land Of The Zulu Kings ' by Smail , I'm not home so cant check if the title is 100 % correct   
Cheers 90th

Hey 90th, yeah your bang on! very interesting book,
Mainly about the settling of Natal, but masses on
the Zulu, lots of photo's!   

springbok9 wrote:

Mike Snook puts together a brilliant hypothesis of the course of the battle, really brilliant, then adds conversations  and movements that are impossible to verify so creating another series of myths.

Good summary. His books read like a study in extremes.

Yes, I am with Springy on this, and as Tenedos says, 'not good when myth (or lies) is pedaled as fact'.

How very true that is, and how many have fallen for these myths or lies in the past, and what is more, how many still believe them to be the truth or actual fact (take the Baker film 'zulu' for instance), how many have fallen for that big welsh hoax, but believe it to be 'fact' I wonder?

If enough people fall for and believe all the lies and myths, then the lies and myths eventually replace history itself, and the true historical facts get covered up or hidden, and are replaced by the lies and the myths, and that cannot be right.

Martin apart from your Zulu film Hoax. What Myths and Lies are you referring to?

Hi LH.

Well, there are a few really, ie; the Ken Griffiths doco, the back of the fag card posted by Les, the RW statement about one of its antecedent regiments (the swb). There are also some of Mike Snooks comments and guesswork in his book and also on the VWF (which he must know as being ex Lt Col of the regiment) that they will only add to the myth. Then of course there is the cover up and the web of lies and deceit, concocted by LC and his cronies to put the blame on Col Durnford for the loss at iSandlwana. There are numerous myths about both battles (iSandlwana and RD), ie, ammo, Coghill, Melvill, Pulleine, what were Col Durnford's orders from LC, was Adendorff at RD, was David Jenkins at RD, was Hook a model soldier or a layabout, etc, etc. There are quite a few things that have been taken as fact, but then later, through some good research, have been proven to be a myth. The problem is LH, that there were that many uncorroborated or unwitnessed statements from the survivors of iSandlwana that were taken as fact at the time, and over the years have been taken for granted as being the truth. But after the passage of many years, and down to some good research and the gathering of information and putting together a time line, that many of these accounts are now being sorted out and classed as either a myth, a lie, or as being reliable information. Like I say mate, it's todays good researchers that winkle out fact from fiction, but there is a lot of mystery about certain aspects of the AZW, so it will take these researchers quite some time to sort out the myths, the lies and the facts.

Cheers mate.

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

Like I say mate, it's todays good researchers that winkle out fact from fiction, but there is a lot of mystery about certain aspects of the AZW, so it will take these researchers quite some time to sort out the myths, the lies and the facts.

Trouble is that over the passage of time changing historical schools of thought tend to reflect the contemporary concerns of the societies that the historians inhabit, rather than any perfect evolution towards an absolute truth. Given what we don't know, and can probably never know, about this topic, I doubt Isandlwana will prove an exception.