WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Royal Marine Light Infantry, Chatham
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyToday at 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» H.M.S. Forester
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyToday at 4:07 pm by johnex

» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 10:53 am by Julian Whybra

» Samuel Popple
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES

» Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now available
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» Grave of Henry Spalding
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves

» John West at Kambula
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15

» Private Frederick Evans 2/24th
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T

» Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthy
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra

» William Jones Comment
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie

» Brother of Lt Young
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg

» Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra

» Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualties
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra

» Absence of Vereker from Snook's Book
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock family
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan

» No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas Newman
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash

» Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's Drift
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan

» Studies in the Zulu War volumes
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Martini Henry carbine IC1 markings
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs

» James Conner 1879 clasp
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny

» 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf

» Frontier Light Horse uniform
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier

» Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24th
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash

» A Bullet Bible
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra

» Brothers Sears
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie

» Zulu War Medal MHS Tamar
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c

» Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyTue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai

» Shipping - transport in the AZW
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183

» 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BAR
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash

» A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
November 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
252627282930 
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
In deference to other online platforms discussing the history of the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
SRB1965
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
warrior3
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Eddie
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
John Young
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Dash
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
aussie inkosi
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Kev T
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_leftPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 BarPrudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Bar_right 
New topics
» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young

» Samuel Popple
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» John West at Kambula
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 04, 2024 11:54 pm by MKalny15

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:32 am by Kev T

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 1:42 pm by lydenburg

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 28, 2024 8:18 am by SRB1965

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 27, 2024 11:32 am by SRB1965

» Brother of Lt Young
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 26, 2024 9:52 pm by Eddie

Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana

Go down 
+15
John Young
rusteze
Julian Whybra
24th
Ray63
ymob
waterloo50
John
90th
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
barry
Mr M. Cooper
impi
Frank Allewell
Martini-Henry
19 posters
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
AuthorMessage
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:28 am

90th wrote:
ctsg
Your much earlier post where you think Durnford was doing the same as LC isnt quite the same , Durnford had a fast mobile force , he could certainly retreat if he came across a strong contingent of zulu , LC couldnt , and would've died were they stood ! . So I think you certainly cant compare the situations ..
90th

Quite right, he was very good at retreating. Wasn't his retreat with his fast moving force a part of what led to the disaster at Isandlwana. I suppose we could say it was a good Job, he was refused the two companies of the 24th, as they were in foot. We know what happened to his RB that were also on foot.
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:44 am

CTSG please! Durnford died & paid for his mistakes. In the end he fought heroically & can't be faulted for the manner in which he died. The comment was about "mobility" viz cavalry & infantry. Lord C just didn't have enough! That's a fact, I'm not apportioning blame.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10909
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Prudent & Foolish decisions at Isandlwana    Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:53 am

ctsg
If he was so good at retreating why did he die on the battlefield ? . I think you'll find his fast moving retreating force actually saved lives by giving a few others a chance to get away , while he , held off the left horn till his ammunition began to fail ! . His actions were on different scenarios , he thought at Isandlwana that the zulu would possibly be attempting to cut off your mate LC and his force . He was being proactive on his unauthorised sortie , even though LC seems to have given the go ahead for company commanders to act as they thought fit ! . Did he take the rocket battery with him on censured sortie ? , I dont think it was a wise move him taking it out with him at Isandlwana , then again it's the old story , he , and all the others never thought the zulu army would attack the camp , Durnford was more worried about LC than the camp . But , Hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it ? .
90th
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:02 am

The phrase farting against thunder springs to mind 90th. Rolling Eyes Wink
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:12 am

Mr Allewell,
Your last comment was an absolute classic! I'm going to use that one LOL.

agree Very Happy
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:44 am

Lord Chelmsford embarks on a campaign with a force which was believed by the British Government to be used for defensive purposes only. He lacked at least two Infantry Division. LC understood that his military strength was totally inadequate for the task at hand but still he pushed on. He (LC) then gives unclear and often ropey orders that were left open to interpretation by his subordinates, he then dismisses any advice that they dare to offer him. LC then splits his force and heads off leaving the camp in an extremely vulnerable situation. What was it that one of his peers said when asked about Lord Chelmsford's conduct, "It is to me perfectly incomprehensible.

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 7:15 pm

And then Durnford splits the force again. agree
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 7:52 pm

CTSG obviously you do not accept that Durnford rode out concerned that his Commanding General was imperilled. What other reason would he ride out for?
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:02 pm

Now we are going down hill. May I suggest you read all of the " Durnford was he capable threads"
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:04 pm

Didn't someone, possibly 90th say Durnford was 'being proactive', I would agree with that point. Why did Durnford head out, simple, he wanted to investigate a possible Zulu flanking movement which he believed could isolated LC from the camp, I would have thought that would be an obvious thing to do given the reports of Zulu movements, or am I missing something?

Regards

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:37 pm

Simple????????
Shocked Shocked Shocked
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:48 pm

He was ordered to move to the camp. Not leave the camp. What part of that order do you not understand. No
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:38 pm

ymob,

Okay, maybe not simple.
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:42 pm

CTSG,

Did the order state clearly remain at camp? I thought the orders were a bit vague.

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:58 pm

waterloo50 wrote:
ymob,

Okay, maybe not simple.
Wink

Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:31 pm

CTSG,

LC's orders to Pulleine were vague

LC's orders to Durnford on returning to the camp were vague, he hadn't specified what Durnford was supposed to do.

Where did the order to remain in camp come from? or, are you suggesting that Durnford was supposed to arrive and act on his own initiative (Which he did)


The way I see it is, that an order to head to the camp, does not mean 'Stay in the Camp'

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:58 pm

Funny things orders are. Especially when they go missing & all that can be relied on are the statements of certain " officers & gentlemen."
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:05 pm

Be a bit careful with the question of orders from LC to Durnford. It looks very likely that some orders are missing - take a look at the thread "Who was most culpable for the defeat at Isandlwana" from the post on16 June 2015 at 10.55 onwards. We do not have the full picture of what the orders to Durnford amounted to.

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:11 pm

I can perceive the embryo of the subject "Durnford was he capable 7 ?Very Happy "
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:29 pm

Be a bit careful with the question of orders from LC to Durnford. It looks very likely that some orders are missing - take a look at the thread "Who was most culpable for the defeat at Isandlwana" from the post on16 June 2015 at 10.55 onwards. We do not have the full picture of what the orders to Durnford amounted to.


Exactly the point I was trying to make with CTSG's erarlier post that Durnford was "ordered to stay in camp"
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:31 pm

Correction to lady post "ordered to move to camp" apologies
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:33 pm

All agreed that there are missing orders, so, we have to go with what we know as fact, the rest is conjecture or Chinese whispers.

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:45 pm

Going with what we know is one thing. Interpreting the intentions of LC and the understanding that Durnford had of those intentions, without all the facts, is another.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:58 pm

Unfortunately we shall never have, " all the facts." We are forced to draw conclusions based on what we do know sometimes we are right, sometimes wrong. This is part of the fun, that so many of us can arrive at disparate standpoints in the debates still raging about the AZW. I'm off to bed now goodnight my friends
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 7:32 am

MH
Well done you've put your finger on the spot, it why this forum exists. We have so many differing levels from the 'Who was to blame." and the order interpretations to the posting of these wonderful pictures by JY, isandula and 90th. And of course the erudite comments from our resident fundis.
I don't know if CTSG is right or wrong but its his viewpoint and he defends it.
Me, I get a sore backside from side saddling the fence.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 7:35 am

Oh yes
Brigadier ? My old troop sergeant would be convulsed with laughter.
First time in his life he would have smiled the miserable Sod.
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 7:53 am

Mr Allewell,
Thanks for the kind sentiments, it is a steep learning curve. There are so many on this Forum who have infinitely greater knowlege than myself. I like to think that we can all bring something to the table.

Salute
Back to top Go down
Dave

Dave


Posts : 1603
Join date : 2009-09-21

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:04 am

Martini seems to have come across the problem fairly quickly. the finger of blame has being rotating for years and years, just when your convinced you have established the guilty one, something new comes to light, and sets the finger rotating again.
Back to top Go down
Dave

Dave


Posts : 1603
Join date : 2009-09-21

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:09 am

waterloo50 wrote:
CTSG,

Did the order state clearly remain at camp? I thought the orders were a bit vague.

Waterloo


Before CTSG replys

I'm guessing he would say!

Did the order state clearly leave the camp. So in military terms, would you not just move to the camp and wait further orders, no matter how long it takes to get them, knowing your General was going to meet the Zulus. And the stores required for the invasion was left in the camp.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:38 am

Back to the same point Dave, he went to the camp and so obeyed his orders. After that? Wide open to interpretation really.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4175
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:58 am

Exactly Frank...unless there were anything previous that would indicate any subsequently-desired action on the part of LC.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 10:37 am

And that's my point, whatever view we hold needs to acknowledge that there are parts of the jigsaw missing that could make a significant difference to our understanding of why things happened in the way they did.

I became a Lt Colonel earlier in the week and am looking forward to the pension increase.

Steve
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:33 pm

Hi all,


Has anyone come up with a simplified timeline or a bullet point flow chart sort of thing for the movements, orders both real and missing for Isandlwana, if they have that's brilliant if not would any of the more knowledgeable members be prepared to put one together, perhaps other members could add to it as a kind of work in progress. I often find myself trawling through half a dozen books in order to work out who said what to who. I would do one for myself but I just don't have the knowledge like our experts and I'm sure that I would miss things out.

Cheers

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:38 pm

Steve/rusteze

Congratulations on the Lt Colonel, Salute


Waterloo
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:39 pm

...but half-pay Very Happy
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:40 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Oh yes
Brigadier ? My old troop sergeant would be convulsed with laughter.
First time in his life he would have smiled the miserable Sod.

Brigadier Frank,

Congratulations Salute
Back to top Go down
Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


Posts : 148
Join date : 2015-06-19
Age : 66
Location : Scotland

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:43 pm

It would be churlish of me not to offer my congratulations also.

Well done Brigadier Salute

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:43 pm

Waterloo
I have time lines based on the whole battle, of necessity they are split up into geographical segments. Ive been working on a 3D computer model with a time and distance axis, alas time tends to run out.
Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:46 pm

Sorry I should have added that Im quite prepared to e mail to you, they are to long and convoluted to post. There are however a couple of essays Ive humbly put together looking at movements around the battle field, Possibly one of the more adept members could lead you to them.

Regards

PS I do tend to come in through different doors.............on occasion.
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:57 pm

Hi Frank

I would appreciate it if you could e mail me the time lines, I will have a search for your essays.

Many Thanks

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 1:14 pm

Fank,

I have found one of your essays, The Tahelane Spur in Context.

Cheers

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 1:32 pm

I would be grateful for your timelines as well Frank. I don't think you have sent them before.

PS I think Brigadier makes you the senior man so, like LC, it's all your fault.

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:06 pm

rusteze wrote:
I would be grateful for your timelines as well Frank. I don't think you have sent them before.

PS I think Brigadier makes you the senior man so, like LC, it's all your fault.

Steve

Please Frank, me too.
Cheers
frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:08 pm

So I am not the only one that would benefit from a time-line then?


Waterloo
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:11 pm

For several reasons, it's a difficult subjet.
Keith I. SMITH wrote an essay on this.
Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:15 pm

Frederic,

Do you know what the title of the essay was?

Cheers

Waterloo
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:50 pm

"Isandlwana: a timetable".

Cheers

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:56 pm

Smith, Keith I. “Isandlwana: A Timetable.” Journal of the Anglo Zulu War Historical Society 18 (December 2005); reprinted (as “A Battle Timetable”?) in his book "dead was everything:Studies in the Anglo Zulu war by the same author.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 3:01 pm

rusteze wrote:
I would be grateful for your timelines as well Frank. I don't think you have sent them before.

PS I think Brigadier makes you the senior man so, like LC, it's all your fault.

Steve

Steve, the senior man is Major General "Gary" (90th).
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 3:07 pm

Might have known an Aussie would be at the bottom of it!

Steve
Back to top Go down
 
Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana
Back to top 
Page 2 of 4Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: