Latest topics | » Royal Marine Light Infantry, ChathamToday at 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom » H.M.S. ForesterToday at 4:07 pm by johnex » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Yesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Yesterday at 10:53 am by Julian Whybra » Samuel PoppleYesterday at 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai » Shipping - transport in the AZWSun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183 » 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BARSun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash » A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Character of the Men | |
|
+990th ymob ADMIN Frank Allewell waterloo50 24th John rusteze Martini-Henry 13 posters | |
Author | Message |
---|
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:45 pm | |
| Were there still survivors at Isandlwana late in the afternoon of the 22nd when Chelmsford was waiting for Glyn’s troops to come up and join him before returning to the camp?
Answer by IK on this forum:
"Almost certainly. There are a couple of Zulu references to soldiers either holding out a long time or hiding or playing dead, and only being discovered during the looting which followed the fighting. There are also suggestions that a few individuals from the NNC had managed to slip through the Zulu cordon at some point (probably by passing themselves off as Zulus) and joined Chelmsford on his return. So it’s very likely that there were a few survivors still alive until quite late in the afternoon. It is a sobering thought that they might have been watching Chelmsford come up, and been trying to hold on".
So for IK, only few survivors still alive at the arrival of Chelmsford. The "timeline" again... Cheers |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3315 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 pm | |
| Frédéric,
Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.
Littlehand,
There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi. May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.
John,
Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead. That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him. Just my suggestion.
John Y.
|
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:56 pm | |
| Bonsoir Mr YOUNG, Always happy to learn! Cheers |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:11 pm | |
| - John Young wrote:
- Frédéric,
Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.
Littlehand,
There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi. May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.
John,
Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead. That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him. Just my suggestion.
John Y.
So what we saying Durnford was blind and couldn't see for himself what was unfolding. He soon moved to the safety of the Camp. Leaving the poor soldier to retreat on foot albeit there was a spare horse. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 pm | |
| Thanks John. It's was Ulundi.
Statement by Zulu page 100
click here |
| | | waterloo50
Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:43 pm | |
| A question for Frank,
I have just watched your footage 'Isandlwana Younghusbands retreat, at 0:54 you pan your camera towards a point on the mountain and comment that 'after coming down from his last stand against the mountain' at that point in the footage there is a rocky outcrop above a grassed area which I assume is where Younghusband was. My question is, have you managed to take any pictures from that vantage point and how high do you estimate that area to be above the camp?
Many Thanks
Dave |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:24 am | |
| |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:07 am | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain. A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into. The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera. Cheers |
| | | waterloo50
Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:07 am | |
| Frank,
That is a great help.
Many Thanks
Dave/Waterloo |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:47 pm | |
| Frank, Many thanks for the photography.
About the "timeline" (Charge of Younghusband / arrival of Chelmsford).
According to Ian Knight (p. 446 / Zulu rising): "The long afternoon passed. All firing had long since stopped at Isandlwana and dark smudges on the slopes of the iNyoni escarpment suggested that the Zulus were now retiring. "Towards evening", said Browne "i saw a small body of horsemen riding towards us. On using my glasses i discovered that it was the General and his staff and i at once mounted and rode to meet him". After the meeting with Chelmsford, HB said to him "the camp has been taken Sir " and "the camp was taken at about 1.30 PM" (Zulu rising p.446) So, according to Ian Knight and Hamilton-Browne, the fightings at Isandhlwana had been ceased long before the arrival of Chelmsford:Younghusband could not have seen the arrival of Chelmsford force before his charge.
In another statement (Paton: "Historical record..."p.237), Chelmsford with Hamilton-BROWNE met Lonsdale.... about 3.30 PM (Hill of the Sphinx p.51)!!!
Cheers Frédéric
|
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:10 am | |
| Hi Frederic. I don't have access to the library at present but we are back to the notorious time gaps and discrepancies again. There is a Zulu statement that puts the last fighting as a group of men on the mountain slopes and one on the saddle. And of course the statement that one of the Zulus watched as the column advanced to the camp. There is also the Zulu statement that puts the fighting as extending to late in the afternoon. Then of course the issue with Lonsdale blundering into the camp and making haste to meet up with Brown etc. It was still full daylight when Chelmsford and his mounted men reached Brown and advanced towards the stream and then waited for his column to arrive. Sorry about the lack of direction above but I shall be able to put names and estimates to all the above as soon as Im back in Cape Town, or maybe Im just daydreaming again? In the meantime Im sure you will with your normal diligence be able to beat me to it. Regards mon ami |
| | | Dave
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:39 pm | |
| - Frank Allewell wrote:
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.
A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into. The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.
Cheers The memorials on the lower ground in the distance,would those chaps have been fighting or dead at the time Younghusband was making his way along the ridge. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:58 pm | |
| Hi Dave Always difficult to bring the battle down to individual time frames but my guess would be they had already been over run. They are the furthest points from the mountain so would have been Popes men and possibly Porteous on retreat.
Cheers |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Character of the Men Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:19 pm | |
| Bonsoir Frank, My first point (I.E: Knight / HB) was against your hypothesis but my second point (3h30 / "Historical record...") was in favor of your case. Unfortunately (I.E: for me), i have no time presently to study your point of view. Your hypothesis is challenged not only by knight but also Lock and Quantrill (Zulu Victory).I do not know authors who have advanced the same assumption... Therefore, your bold theory arouses my interest, i am curious to read your arguments.
I.E: I am agree with you, the "time" given by HB for the arrival of LC is probably wrong.
Amitiés. Frédéric
|
| | | | Character of the Men | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |