A comprehensive bibliography of AZ war books

After acquiring a few new books through ebay I had a little tot-up of the number of AZ books I own and to my surprise found that I have 50! Surprised because I didn't realise that I had amassed so many but also surprised because I know of many that I do not own.

However it got me thinking...

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of every book that has ever been published that specifically (rather than indirectly) covers aspects of the AZ War?

What would also be useful would be to then collate a review score (similar to a 5/10 star system you often find) for each book. We often get new posters asking about books and which are the goto ones for this period.

Has anyone got an easily copied excel document of their current library that can start the process?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anglo-Zulu-War-1879-Selected-Bibliography/dp/0810872277

What you need is the Anglo-Zulu War 1879 a selected bibliography -

Its expensive , but pretty comprehensive. Alternatively , put on a santa suit and pop down , John Young's, 90th's, Rusteze's or Frank Allewall's chimneys and take pictures of their libraries - should cover everything!!

Hiya younghusband, tricky.. The go to bib would more than likely be
Harold Raugh Jnr's..The Anglo Zulu War: a select bibliography. but i
sense something more behind your question, are you really asking
that people reveal their own private collections?. and that they rank
their books...to what end?. i have a few books myself and there might
be a few considered desirable or even essential in a modest AZW library,
but for me the main aim was always to acquire knowledge, when i
nabbed a book i was seeking for a long time, once the information has
been extracted it goes on a shelf, and i move on.the next thing is always
the best thing for me. be it book, map, print what ever!.there is still a
lot out there just waiting to be found, people die, collections are quickly
broken up. its sad but such is life.                        cheers xhosa2000

Well said Sergio

Actually my thinking is more that, for someone with an interest but not at the levels of someone who researches the subject, it would be useful to know what additions would be worthwhile to avoid trying to collect the more obscure and potentially less interesting (obviously everyone has their own views) tomes.

Thanks Sergio, a great starting point hadn't thought of using an allready comprehensive bibliography - obvious really!

younghusband - if you search previous strings I am sure there was a whole topic - where everyone discussed their favourite books. I remember finding it particularly useful - if the guys on here agree on a book in my experience it generally is.

If you are looking for a last minute xmas present (and a nice investment piece)and can source it - you cant go much wrong than the present MRS D gave me a couple of years back which was the leather bound limited editions of Sonia Clarke - Invasion of Zululand and also Zululand at War , both of which are cracking reads.

Rgds Sergio

Rumour has it that Xhosa's library is pretty good as well - I would pop down his chimney as well

Hi Younghusband
As a few have mentioned Harold Raugh's Book will give you what you seek , it's still very expensive but I feel it's well worth having , it all depends how serious you want to become in the AZW , I've had a several people contact me over the years asking my opinion on what books I think are ' Must Have's ' I think my list was about 30 if not more from memory ! , it's always interesting to get some different perspectives , but anything by Knight , Laband , Jackson , Sonia Clarke , and several who were actually in the campaign , some by Lock & Quantrill ( I don't go for their Missing 5 hrs theory ) which is another story , so don't ask why ! . Plus the AZW Historical society along with the older works of the AZW Research society , I cant be more comprehensive as I'm in the middle of moving and all my books are boxed up for the time being , hope this has been of some help .
Cheers 90th

I agree wholeheartedly that Harold Raugh's Bibliography is exceptional. It is expensive and it comes in a crappy paperback binding but, there is nothing else that even comes close. It runs to 666 pages, not just books but letters, parliamentary papers and documents from the national archives etc. Quite honestly it is worth considering having it hard bound if you can. I refer to it so often it would get very dogeared otherwise.

How many books you need depends on your motivation. I cannot resist an original victorian edition if I can get it at a reasonable price and I don't mind tatty if it has a connection with a participant. I don't mind if the author gets some of it wrong if it is a classic - The Washing of the Spears is the prime example for me. But for accuracy you realy only need Hill of the Sphinx and Zulu Rising. For a pretty accurate good read you need Zulu Victory and How could Man Die Better. For the contentious characters you need Road to Isandhlwana and Lord Chelmsford and the Zulu War  plus the Colenso/ Edward Durnford books. For modern research that is meticulously done you need Julian Whybra's essays and Keith Smiths.

Finally, in my view you need to add two more essential elements - maps and photographs. The official narrative has the original maps, Keith Smith has an excellent commentary on them. If you can get full size maps it adds a great deal in my view, but that's just my thing. You need to be able to picture the ground either by going there or, for most of us, by taking advantage of the generosity of Frank and Garry and their photo libraries.

You would be forgiven for thinking this is all about Isandhlwana and of course there are other aspects to study. But I keep coming back to that enigmatic event that fascinates and confounds us in equal measure. 

Seasons greetings to all.
Steve

Hi Steve
Well said that man .....
All the best to you and yours Steve .
Cheers 90th

Bonjour,
Totally agree with the list given by Steve.
For the contentious characters, I add "Invasion of Zululand" and " Zululand at war" edited by Sonia Clarke.
For account from witnesses : " Thé journal of Harford" (Daphne Child), "A lost legionary in South Africa" ( Hamilton- Browne), thé books of Hallam_Parr and Norris-Newman, " The red soldier" ( Emery) and the old journal off thé AZRS ( John Young).
Bonnes fêtes de Noël à tous les membres.
Cheers
Frédéric

Bonjour Frederic
.
90th

90th wrote:

Bonjour Frederic
.
90th

Hi Gary,
I welcome your progress in French!


Amitiés.

Frédéric

Merci Frederic
90th

Bonjour à tous,
Do YOU know where I can get a copy of this book: " Historical records of the 2nd battalion 24th régiment for thé campaign in South Africa 1877-8-9" published privately by thé régiment in Secunderbad, january 1882.
I research thé extract about thé décision taken by Harness- Black to return at Isandhlwana thé 22 january after the meeting between Church and Develin and before thé order given by Gossett to rejoin GLYN at thé new bivouac in thé Mangeni.
Thank YOU very much.
Frédéric

Bonjour Frederic
That was when Harness decided to make his way back to Isandlwana , but was told by Gosset , that LC wanted Harness to return to where he had came from ( Mangeni ) . I know the book , unfortunately , I don't own a copy . I don't think I've ever seen one for sale , if I did I would've bought it ! .
Amities
90th

Bonjour Gary,
Yes, it's this incident.
I know that it's is a very rare book.
In thé hope that Les has a copy of this book...
Cheers
Frederic

Frederic

Isandula has a copy.

Isandula wrote:

Here is the "Historical Records of the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment for the Campaign in South Africa 1877-78-79 Embracing the Kaffir & Zulu Wars."  Printed by Press, 2nd Battalion, "The South Wales Borderers," at Secunderabad, Deccan, January, 1882.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(Isandula Collection)

Steve

Bonjour Steve,
Wonderful!
Thank you very much.

Cheers
Frédéric

I'd love a copy of that ! , I wonder how many pages ?
90th

me too - maybe we can convince Isandula - to print a few up !!

Merry Xmas by the way Gary - and I hope you have a successfully acquisitive new year , unless you are up against me in the auction!!

Sergio

Hi Sergio
I'd be happy to send off some cash for a copy , plus postage of coarse , if Isandula was happy to have it copied ? .
I suppose it would depend if the booklet is ok , the copying mightn't help it's overall condition . Also mate , you have an excellent Christmas and New Year , I also hope you come across whatever Medal or Group you will be chasing , unless , of coarse , we are bidding against each other ! , will be very interesting if a Hlobane Casualty appears early in the New Year
Cheers Serg
90th

Lol - I will let you have the holbane casualty if you let me have the Lancers Ulundi casualty!!!!

Deal Mate ! . I think we'll have enough competition let alone amongst ourselves ! LOL . Have you snagged anything recently .
I had dramas with the last DNW Auction , they sent them to my old address , but it worked out OK ...luckily !
90th

90th wrote:

Hi Sergio
I'd be happy to send off some cash for a copy , plus postage of coarse
Cheers Serg
90th  

Me too !

Bonjour Frederic LOL . I'm sure there may be several of us who would certainly love a copy of the booklet
90th

Just to note there is a copy of Isandula's booklet in the British Library, it is 58 pages.

There was also another regimentally produced history a little earlier covering 1877/8. As I understand it only two copies are known, one in the MOD Library and the other at Brecon.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I just wonder whether Brecon have also got a copy of the later version?

PS Question answered, Brecon do have a copy archive ref. h.1950.21

Steve

Last example in mind my request for a copy of the Banister's letter to his father....This letter is not found elsewhere:no:
Cheer
Frédéric

Brecon was more proactive when Bill was curator.

Does the lady in the museum shop not handle all the queries regarding books, etc? She was very efficient and did a splendid job, however, she may have now retired, and the museum might be looking for someone to replace her, and if they find anyone as good as that lady was they will have done well, she was first class.

I think her name was Celia?

Miss Celia Green from memory.

Hi Martin
Celia was very good at her job , I've dealt with her several times over the years , first rate
90th

24th, Frederic, Gary.

Yes, that was her name Celia, I wonder if she has retired?

She was first class at her job, always replied to any querie, and always informed people of the progress of their order, ie; awaiting re-stocking, on order, or even an estimate of how long the items were likely to be before dispatch, a very efficient lady, and as Gary rightly says, first rate.

Hope you are all getting well after your hangovers.

I see there are no events connected with the AZW at Brecon museum in 2016

Well, that is such a shame!. its ten years since the last time
i was there.. i would have thought the new curator would
have been bursting with new idea's, new broom ect. if i
had any say whatever i would encourage him to digitize and
put on line all the archive and make it available for all to
see, and if there are budgetary constraints as i'm sure there
must be, a small charge to view and download would be more
than acceptable to most. just a thought.. xhosa

From memory the New curator has I believe a limited interest in the AZW , which may account for a 2016 free of AZW related days etc etc
90th

I think Les has probably put his finger on the problem. We are enthusiasts, but Les hasn't been to Brecon for 10 years and I haven't been for 5. I have been a total of three times in about 20 years. The last time I went it was for a special event with re-enactors and Neil A. demonstrating the MH plus lectures. But even then it wasn't exactly packed. Brecon is a lovely place, but it has to be said it is hard to get to (no rail) and unless you are into hill walking there is not anything much else for you to see or do there. The hard truth is that we have a fantastic resource pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I am sure it will not go down well with some, but now that we have a single Welsh regiment perhaps the collection should all be in Cardiff where it is likely to get a greater footfall. Like all public institutions they must have been strangled for cash and given the cuts to the active military the govt. are unlikely to support increased expenditure on military museums any time soon unless it is self generated. How they do that in Brecon without a big investment first I do not know - it cannot be from passing trade. I for one don't blame the curator, I guess that during these Great War centenary years he is not only obliged to give that conflict some prominence but he is also likely to engage far more people in their family histories.

Steve

Well, one answer would be to bring the old 24th back to its homeland of England.

I am sure that the historical English county of Warwickshire would be more than happy to welcome back one of the two regiments (6th and 24th), that have been taken away from this old historical county. Warwickshire is easy enough to travel to, being more or less central, and it is served by rail and road, so getting there would be no problem for most people, and the visitors to the museum would multiply enormously compared to what visit at the moment.

It may well be only a single so called "welsh" regiment today, however, it is made up from 4 other regiments, ie; 23rd, 24th, 41st and 69th, and not one of these regiments is actually "welsh", they were all raised in England and are therefor all English regiments, ie; 23rd Shropshire. 24th Kent. 41st Chelsea. 69th the old 2nd Batt of the 24th, so maybe they should all come home to England and let the 'welsh' raise one of their own regiments for a change.

I can see that there would be a problem with this, however, the old regiments 'retired' in 1881, being replaced by new regiments with different names and no line numbers, so let the old retired pre 1881 regiments come home to England, and let the new post 1881 regiments remain in wales, that way the English can keep the pre 1881 history, and the welsh can keep the post 1881 history, and that just might solve a lot of problems.

St Mary's church in Warwick would get its revered Chillianwallah colours back, the old 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment would get its sphinx and all its glory and honours back, which would include the AZW, and the swb would have its ww1 and ww2 honours.

OK, it's only a suggestion, but it would be one way of keeping the memory of the AZW and the old 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiments part in it alive and in peoples minds, plus, if the museum was in Warwickshire, at least it would get a lot more visitors than it does at the moment, and that can only be a good thing, at least it will preserve the memory of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment and the mainly Englishmen that served in it, which would be a lot more recognition than it/they are getting at the moment with being in wales.

Worth thinking about eh?

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

Well, one answer would be to bring the old 24th back to its homeland of England.

I am sure that the historical English county of Warwickshire would be more than happy to welcome back one of the two regiments (6th and 24th), that have been taken away from this old historical county. Warwickshire is easy enough to travel to, being more or less central, and it is served by rail and road, so getting there would be no problem for most people, and the visitors to the museum would multiply enormously compared to what visit at the moment.

It may well be only a single so called "welsh" regiment today, however, it is made up from 4 other regiments, ie; 23rd, 24th, 41st and 69th, and not one of these regiments is actually "welsh", they were all raised in England and are therefor all English regiments, ie; 23rd Shropshire. 24th Kent. 41st Chelsea. 69th the old 2nd Batt of the 24th, so maybe they should all come home to England and let the 'welsh' raise one of their own regiments for a change.

I can see that there would be a problem with this, however, the old regiments 'retired' in 1881, being replaced by new regiments with different names and no line numbers, so let the old retired pre 1881 regiments come home to England, and let the new post 1881 regiments remain in wales, that way the English can keep the pre 1881 history, and the welsh can keep the post 1881 history, and that just might solve a lot of problems.

St Mary's church in Warwick would get its revered Chillianwallah colours back, the old 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment would get its sphinx and all its glory and honours back, which would include the AZW, and the swb would have its ww1 and ww2 honours.

OK, it's only a suggestion, but it would be one way of keeping the memory of the AZW and the old 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiments part in it alive and in peoples minds, plus, if the museum was in Warwickshire, at least it would get a lot more visitors than it does at the moment, and that can only be a good thing, at least it will preserve the memory of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment and the mainly Englishmen that served in it, which would be a lot more recognition than it/they are getting at the moment with being in wales.

Worth thinking about eh?

I can't ever imagine a time when the SWB (Royal Welsh) would let go of their claim to the pre 1881 regiments and their histories. Its a nice thought to imagine that the old colours of the 24th/2nd Warwickshire could be viewed at a museum in Warwickshire but its probably never going to happen, regardless of that, I like your thinking.

Hi Waterloo.

Well, the vicar of St Mary's church in Warwick would not, at first,  let the old 24th's colours go, he stood firm until the government got involved and more or less forced him to let the colours go, but he was not very happy about it, and I don't blame him.

With all the recent talk (especially by the snp), of the UK breaking up and the countries going their own ways, it could well be a case of the RW having no choice other than to come to some sort of agreement with regards to the fact that all of the antecedent regiments that make up todays regiment were all raised in England, and if the countries do end up going their own ways, England could reclaim her regiments, meaning wales would have no regiments at all, as even the welsh guards were also raised in England.

But I am sure that some arrangement would be agreed on, maybe something like I have suggested in my post above, ie; the pre 1881 regiments come back home of England, and the post 1881 regiments remain in wales, and that way the old 24th's colours, glory and honours would come back to their rightful home to England, then maybe the spirit of the vicar of St Mary's can at last rest in peace.

I can just picture him defending the colours in his church, and being bitterly disappointed when they were removed, I would bet that the old gentleman was heartbroken. But just think of the joy his spirit would get if they were brought back and replaced where they quite rightly belong, in St Mary's church, Warwick, Warwickshire, England. I for one would be amongst the first to visit and see them, and also pay my respects to them returning back home.

I just want to make sure that I understand the order in which the 24th was developed.

1689 King William makes a proclamation for the raising of 10 regiments of foot.
1751 Sir Edward Dering raises the 24th Regiment of Foot.
1782 Royal Warrant conferred the County title 2nd Warwickshire (No permanent depot or recruiting centres in Warwickshire)
1873 24th establishes a depot in Brecon. Recruits drawn from Brecknock, Cardigan, Montgomery.
1881 24th (2nd Warwickshire)  renamed as the SWB.

I expect that I have missed something here but is my list correct?

From the Army Quarterly num 18 April to July, 1929.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hi Waterloo.

Well, yes, you have missed something, quite a lot actually, and no, your list is most definitely NOT correct.

I don't know from which books or which websites you have been getting the misinformation from (I suspect it could well be something with a leaning towards the welsh), but they are not very well informed in regards to the old 24th and its history, and if I were you I would either read some better books or visit better websites that can give you much better and correct information, don't be fooled by some of the stuff you read that always puts a 'welsh' slant on things.

Did you know for example that through government interference and reforms, the regiment was moved from its homeland of England to the border of south wales, and that a regiment was moved from the border of south wales into Oxfordshire, England. Or did you know that although the old 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was moved, it was moved ON PAPER ONLY, and that by the start of the AZW in 1879, that NEITHER battalion of the old 24th had ever been to Brecon

A good old fashioned saying to keep in mind is "Seek and ye shall find".

The truth is out there.

All the best for the New Year.

In all honesty, I did get most of my facts from the royalwelsh.org.uk website and from a couple of my books, the information that I posted was my attempt to put things into some sort of order so that I could better understand the development of the 24th. I figured that if anyone understood the history of the 24th then it would be the Royal Welsh. I'm always happy to look for better information but how am I supposed to know which site/book gives the correct information? I know that this subject is a bit of a hot potato and I have no wish to highjack this thread either, I am not expecting anyone to do my research for me but I would however greatly appreciate it if you could tell me where I can find the correct information that I am after. If this discussion needs its own thread, then can we start one? I would simply like to get my facts right.

I wish you the very best for the New Year.

xhosa2000 wrote:

From the Army Quarterly num 18 April to July, 1929.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hello Xhosa

Thanks for that, I know that we have touched upon the Cardwell reforms in the past.

Waterloo.

Hi waterloo.

Yes, the King did proclaim that regiments should be raised, and in 1689 Sir Edward Dering raised a regiment in Pluckley, Kent, England, and it was raised for the defence of the English Kingdom.

At that time regiments were known by their colonels names, and this was the case until 1751, when the regiment was given the line number of 24, making it the 24th regiment of foot. This only lasted for 31 years, as in 1782 the regiments were given county titles, the 24th was honoured with the county title of Warwickshire, becoming the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment of foot (the 6th foot becoming the 1st Warwickshire regiment). The regiment held this title for the longest time in its entire history (the best part of 100 years), until 1881, when, due to government interference and more reforms, ALL line numbers and old county titles were officially abolished, and the old regiments were more or less 'retired', however, from the ashes of the old regiments, there arose like a phoenix a 'new' regiment, this 'new' regiment was given a 'new' name, which was the SWB, however, there were no line numbers (they had been officially abolished), meaning that the SWB never had the line number of 24 and therefor were never the 24th regiment of foot, they were just the SWB.

The SWB lasted for 88 years, it was amalgamated in 1969 with the old 41st and 69th, and the new regiments title became the RRW, this regiment only lasted for 37 years, it was amalgamated in 2006 with the old 23rd to become the RW.

It is a fact that information provided from pro welsh sources very rarely informs the reader of the true history of the regiment, they like to word the information in such a way as to make the reader believe that the regiment as always been 'welsh', and they very rarely give the old English title of the regiment or let people know that it held this title for the longest time in its entire history. But they do like to put forward the name of the SWB or the RRW and even the RW when any mention of the AZW is spoken of, but of course they do like to quote the pre 1881 battle honours and glory, and portay them as being 'theirs', but without ever mentioning the true historical facts of the regiment that won those honours nor the Englishmen that suffered winning them.

One of the ploys is to inform folk that although the regiment was named the 2nd Warwickshire regiment during the battle of Rorke's Drift, only a couple of men at RD actually came from Warwickshire, however, they make no mention that only a handful actually came from wales.

Another ploy they like to play on, is that some of the men in the regiment at RD had welsh sounding names, including the two that were awarded the VC, but they were actually Englishmen (Monmouth being part of England at the time), meaning that all 7 VC's went to Englishmen. In other words, they are much like this present day government and the controlled TV news and mainstream media, they only let you know what they want you to know, the truth hides elsewhere.

Hope this helps.

Martin

I won't argue with you about the "Welsh" issue - you know what I think about that ! But I cannot go along with your description of the Cardwell reforms as government interference.

Flogging abolished
Bounty money abolished
Short service enlistment introduced (6-12 years instead of 24)
Sale of commissions to officers abolished
Enlistment to specific regiments instead of to general service (previously you could be sent to any regiment they liked)
Defence policy of Canada, Australia and New Zealand devolved.

All long overdue changes that were needed to create an efficient and effective military force. But of course the army opposed them all.

I think you are chucking the baby out with the bath water my friend !

Just to gently stir the pot a little, I calculate that no less than four Rorke's Drift VC winners, when they retired or were discharged, were proud members of the South Wales Borderers.

Steve

My post above this holds some clues as to how the Cardwell Reforms
were received!.although they were very much ' in the post ' driven
along by radical free thinking reformers, much to the horror of the
c in c. The Old 24th, has i'm afraid been very much airbrushed from
history.

I have seen people often remark, that when in 1881 the 2nd Warwick-
shires became in an instant..The South Wales Borderers..that the regt
somehow sailed blithely on. is this true?..How do we know this?. the
above suggests something quite different. " who's identity, on amalga
-mation was totally obliterated from the army".. and then goes on in
the last few lines to suggest the dismay that Battle Honour's could be
so easily accrued to a brand new entity.

The recent crude cutting below shows the myth's ongoing perpetuation.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hi Steve.

Well, in all fairness, waterloo wanted to know a bit more about the development of the 24th, and I was attempting to give him a condensed history of it.

The Cardwell reforms were not just for the 24th, they were for all the regiments, that is why I didn't go into any detail about them. But yes, you are right, there were some good points about the reforms, and I agree with those that you have listed, but it would have seemed a bit long winded to go into detail about the Cardwell reforms when all waterloo wanted to know about was the development of the 24th, that is why I was attempting to give him a quick run down of some of the main points.

The four men you mention may well have been proud members of the SWB when they retired or were discharged, however, no doubt they would have been even prouder when they were awarded their VC's for the valour that they had shown at RD, but the name of their regiment when they fought at RD and earned that award was the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, not the SWB.