Durnfords retreat.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Unfortunately, it is much less romantic.
Two and a half hours of transport per day ... Salute

Amitié.

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:55 pm

Steve if I could spell Guffaw I would.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

ymob wrote:: The fact that someone sends a black messenger (and not a white man) who does not speak English tends to indicate a "critical situation".

An example of this assertion:
Alan Gardner stated : "When I saw all was lost, I sent un order by a Basuto to the Officer on Rork's Drift, telling him to fortify, and hold the house. I sent a similar order to Helpmekaar". (PP C2260, p.101)

Amitié

Fred
I.E: Steve and Frank, do your hear the melodious song of the cicadas?

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Sorry, Gardner didn't tell us if the Basuto spoke English.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Ah the cicadas, I remember well my time in Arles with the sunflowers and the cicadas. But then my ear went missing and I could hear their melodious song no more.

Vincent

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Steve. More speculation. Rolling Eyes

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:28 am

Wasn't the message sent by Gardner to RD a written one?

Subject: Durnford's retreat Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:20 pm

Alan Gardner from memory states he wrote a pencilled message to the officer in charge at RD , to hold their ground .
90th

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

rusteze wrote:: Ah the cicadas, I remember well my time in Arles with the sunflowers and the cicadas. But then my ear went missing and I could hear their melodious song no more.

Vincent

An incarnation in my French mind of the so famous British humor. Congratulations, Camarade!

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

In truth I am jealous, it is freezing here!

I take it we have all read Keith Smith's chapter on the messages in "Dead was Everything". He thinks the native on the horse was the third messenger from HB.

As a random thought, is there a remote possibility that the message came from Scott, who was clearly sending messages to the camp and to Durnford ?

Lastly, another reason I doubt the native messenger came from Durnford is that Edward D says nothing about it in "A Soldiers Life and Work". ED has emphasised every positive aspect he can about AD's actions at Isandhlwana and I am sure he would have mentioned any attempt to warn LC.

Steve

Subject: Durnford's retreat Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:46 pm

Hi Steve
You are certainly right there about ED , absolutely no doubt if he believed the messenger was from Anthony , he clearly would've said so .
90th

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour Steve and Gary,
The correct answer about ED and his thought about the black's messenger is already in this thread. If you are interested by it, see a previous message posted by me (November, 6, 2016: 8.24 a.m.).
Time for me to leave this thread.
Cheers
Frédéric

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I missed that Frederic, quite right. Jackson references Edward in Hill of the Sphinx.

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour Frank, Steve, all,

About the "Black's messenger" sent by Durnford:
According to Kambule, Durnford during his fighting's retreat sent indeed a native trooper (Natal Witness, 16 August 1879).
Quoted in "Black's soldiers of the Queen": "A man was sent to ask the Lt-Gl for help" (p.51).

Cheers.

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:39 pm

Have we given any consideration to the Volunteer mentioned by I think Barker, I seem to recall he actually named him?

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank,
It's Hayhoe .
This Carbiner is mentioned effectively by Barker but also by S. Jones (NMR) and . Symons (NC).
Hayhoe was killed at Isandhwana.

See England's sons p.29 (th edition).
According to JW, it's possible that Hayhoe was the Messenger of Pulleine (1st message / 8.05 a.m.).

Cheers

Frédéric

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

For Drummond Pulleine's Messenger (I.E: first message) belonged to the Natal Carbineers, for the "Historical records of the 24th" (W.P. Symons?) the Messenger belonged to the Natal Mounted Police ("an Orderly").

Cheers
Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:54 pm

Hi Frederic
Yes Hayhoe. I will probably be castigated for this but I'm going to disagree with Julian. Barkers statement is pretty chronological and he puts Hayhoe's departure from the camp AFTER he had ridden in with a message fom Scott and just prior to the rocket Battery being engaged.
Barker rode out back towards Scott and then witnessed the RB being destroyed so if anyone would like to slot that into a timetable it would be at least 10 minutes before the Battery was destroyed that Hayhoe left the camp.
That would put him on the plain and clear of the advancing left horn and the Zulu coming down the Qwabe. So I wonder what became of him?
So back to my opening disagreement with the eminent Mr Whybra, it was at least 3 1/2 hours after the 8.05 message.
Or am I reading Frederics post wrongly?

Cheers

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank,
My message about Barker was only a synthesis of the comment written by JW on Hayhoe.
Under these circumstaces you hadn' t reading my post wrongly...
I am sending you a PM

Cheers

Frédéric

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Bonjour Frederic

Kambule's statement about Durnford sending a black messenger to Chelmsford is a good discovery. I am beginning to agree with you that this is the mystery messenger!

What I find interesting is it must mark the moment when Durnford switches from thinking Chelmsford's force might be under threat to realising the camp itself is the target and he asks LC for help. At that point he must have known he was doomed, but I suspect he did not give any indication of that to others.

regards
Steve

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

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Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

rusteze wrote:: Bonjour Frederic

Kambule's statement about Durnford sending a black messenger to Chelmsford is a good discovery. I am beginning to agree with you that this is the mystery messenger!

What I find interesting is it must mark the moment when Durnford switches from thinking Chelmsford's force might be under threat to realising the camp itself is the target and he asks LC for help. At that point he must have known he was doomed, but I suspect he did not give any indication of that to others.

regards
Steve

Steve,
I am trying "to put the hand" on the original report from Kambule, to read his own words, context, sequence of events...
You wrote: "I suspect he did not give any indication of that to others". I have the same feeling ...
Cheers

Frédéric

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I thought it might be in the Red Book but I cannot see it there. Kambule was an Edendale man and there is a report of their return dated 13 August on page 326 - no mention of Kambule though.

Steve

Subject: Durnford's retreat Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:23 am

Steve , Frederic and All
Reading Paul Thompson's ' Black Soldiers Of The Queen ' page 51 under the heading ' Pursuit becomes Retreat '
The enemy was attacking in overwhelming numbers . Durnford must retreat . A man was sent to asl the Lt Gen for help ( 37 )
The footnote states NW ( Natal Witness ) August 16th , 1879 ; Kambule . This is where you will probably find Kambule's report on the battle . I don't know if you can get the NW online ? . There are other footnotes regarding Kambule for instance Page 61 footnote 52 , Kambule & Statham , Blacks , Boers & British p191 ( which I don't have ) , Kambule , also the transposed sequence in his accounts in TN ( Times Of Natal ) Aug 15th 1879 and NM ( Natal Mercury ) Aug 18 1879 .
Hope this has been of some help ?
90th Salute

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Hi Gary

Yes, I wondered if the Natal Witness reference might be in the Red Book but it is not. "Blacks, Boers and British" by Reginald Statham was published in 1881 - it is available for free download - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Statham was editor of the Natal Witness. There is an excellent description of the banquet organised by the Edendale men after their return with detailed descriptions of Kambule and others. Statham is also very good on the causes of the war and the attitude of the colonials. Pretty brave stuff for 1881.

Steve

Subject: Durnford's retreat Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:49 am

Hi Steve

Thanks for the link , I may look for a copy , I'd much rather be holding it and turn the pages by hand than read a download .
Cheers 90th agree

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:29 am

90th wrote:: Thanks for the link , I may look for a copy , I'd much rather be holding it and turn the pages by hand than read a download .
Cheers 90th

I have always found that a book is better, when the cat, kids or wife are playing up.....if you launch a tablet or Kindle at them, it can end up a bit expensive......

Subject: Durnford's retreat Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:41 am

Lolll So very true !
90th

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:17 am

Ive just been looking through 'Stalker' the passage on the messenger being sent from the camp rings true (ish) but Hayhoe apears in brackets, possibly a touch of uncertainty there? If Hayhoe was a messenger, got to see LC and returned to the camp would it safe to assume he brought a message back from LC?
That's a curious issue!

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:30 am

Apologies, if someone has already made this comment.

Is there any evidence that Durnfords delaying tactics actually worked, ie delayed the Zulus (apart from maybe with individual warriors)?

I assume that his force was 'overlapped' and in danger of being out flanked (as happened once he took up the position in the donga) and he could not bring enough fire to bare on the whole left wing frontage.

Rather than he influencing the advance of the left horn, I feel that it was the Zulus forcing his pace.

I do not know the terrain to the south of Durnford's initial position but he (with the power of hindsight) may have been better to pull off to his right and threatening the flank of the Zulu advance or at least drawn off the Zulus away from the camp.

Cheers

Sime (CO HM 1st Armchair Regiment)

Posts : 72 Join date : 2016-01-20

Had he moved to his right, would he not have been in danger of being isolated and ultimately overwhelmed due to lack of ammunition without materially influencing the defence of the camp ?

To my mind, his slow withdrawal only led to Pulleine extending his right to support the withdrawal instead of bringing the company back closer to the camp.

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:12 am

Maybe, it depends on the terrain etc.

However as later engagements shown, the Zulus were very prone to undisciplined advances particularly after 'skirmishing' horsemen (by which, I mean ones who refuse to engage the enemy) and 'should' he have managed to delay the Zulus - by drawing them off in a different direction, maybe that would have been more help to the overall defence of the camp, rather than inflicting casualties on the enemy.

I think/feel/guess that the real crisis of the defence (ignoring the right horn) was when HBP sent G Coy to 'support' AWD and then got left in the air by his withdrawal.

The NNMC ran out of ammo trying to hold a defensive position, with too few man against too many - would it have had the same ammunition expenditure, stinging the left horn into a pointless advance, away from the camp?

I dunno, I'm just 'running the flag up the pole and seeing who salutes'......its all ifs buts and maybe's Very Happy

Cheers

Sime

Subject: Durnford's retreat Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:24 am

I havent walked to far to the right of Durnford's position in the donga , but firstly if its like it is to Durnfords left , the Donga will become less deep with minimal protection for his men and horses , secondly by going more to the right I doubt the Zulu would follow , they to me would poor into the larger gap on Durnford's left if he indeed went further right , the camp was the Zulu main target , not 200 or so men moving further right of the camp . Durnford certainly hindered the left horns advance but by what amount we'll never now , the Zulu certainly forced his hand , as it was the left horn which he ran into , and was forced to retire back to the donga because of the weight of numbers .
90th

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:09 am

All very much part of a larger picture but in general I would agree with 90th, if Durnford had just carried on spreading to the South the balance of the Zulu would have just walked through them. There was a sizable gap between to Colonials and the regiments in any case. Wasn't it Harry Davies that deflected his fire to take care of the Zulus slipping passed his left flank. A point to remember as well Durnfords men occupied the North of the Donga, Davies and the centre Henderson South and then the Mixed Mounted Volunteers on the South, sp potentially it was Durnfords force but the men that would have been stretched to the South were Volunteers.
The Donga to the South, past the road is basically the same sort of territory, or was, its now a disspoiled bloody mess because of the idiots that decided to build a sodding big bridge over a tiny stream. These are the same fools that intend to build on the Northern side of the battlefield, moronic self indulgent twats! Sorry I tend to get upset when people are intent on building monuments to their own egos.

Subject: Durnford's retreat Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:28 am

Hi Frank
No apology needed its those fools that need to do the apologising , have you been to Isandlwana recently and has the bridge had any work done on it ? . I was there for 3 weeks in April / May and didn't see one worker down there in that 3 week period.
Bloody ridiculous the size of that bridge for what was required .
90th Salute

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:38 am

I was there in March Gary, nothing been done since last year the same bloody mess but the bridge has to be that big for the fat A.R.S.E.D cow that is interfering in the area to get her 200 kilogram rear end over it................................. From what I gathered the bridge was disgustingly over priced, triple its value in construction costs. The contractor was paid in full and buggered of with the loot to buy a nice shiny BMW x5. Now that INKATHA has taken control from the corruption crowd we might see some common sense returning.

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:41 am

Probably going to get the PC police knocking on the front door pretty soon............

Subject: Durnford's retreat Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:44 am

Hi Ffank
Yes with the elections going the other way the rather large article you mentioned may be out of business ! . I'm going back in Sept / Oct if we get the required numbers . That will be the first thing I look at that white elephantic monstrosity !
90th Rolling Eyes

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:01 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:: Ive just been looking through 'Stalker' the passage on the messenger being sent from the camp rings true (ish) but Hayhoe apears in brackets, possibly a touch of uncertainty there? If Hayhoe was a messenger, got to see LC and returned to the camp would it safe to assume he brought a message back from LC?
That's a curious issue!

I always thought of who could it have been with Whitelaw on Nyesi and my personnel conclusion is that when Scott sent his message back to Pulleine the guy was Hayhoe who could of been with Whitelaw and the first set of eyes who saw the Zulus on that morning and was the one who reported they he and Whitelaw first sighted the Zulu and in tern was sent with Pulleines message to Chelmsford. All of the Caribineers would off been out on Scouting / Pickett duty on that morning. Frank I am certain that when Chelmsford sent Hayhoe back to the camp certain books mention he did not make it back to the camp was his body discovered with Durnfords last stand

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:10 pm

Aussie
Yep my friend ymob says hos body was found on the 21st May at iSandlwana. Its here that it gets tricky, If Barker is to be believed then the plain was cut of within 30 minutes maximum. That's not even a fraction of the time needed to get from the camp to LC and back. I doubt that anyone could have got into the camp from the East. so IF it was Hayhoe that went to see Chelmsford it was much much earlier, possibly 10ish or so. Then Barker is wrong. Alternatly Barker was right about the timing and just got the name wrong.

Cheers

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

poor Hayhow. he went from Isandhlwana to Harness, then on to Mangeni,
then sent back to Isandhlwana just in time to be killed. Barker pages 219-
220.

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Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

Still trying to make sense of the image sizing...

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Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:38 pm

I need a bit of help
Jabez Molife statement, paragraph three. In the transcript I have there is a word missing. : to ride straight across the....... towards the ridge.
Can anyone fill the gap please.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

...to ride straight across the country towards the ridge.

Steve

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:08 pm

Thanks Steve,

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:43 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:: Aussie
Yep my friend ymob says hos body was found on the 21st May at iSandlwana. Its here that it gets tricky, If Barker is to be believed then the plain was cut of within 30 minutes maximum. That's not even a fraction of the time needed to get from the camp to LC and back. I doubt that anyone could have got into the camp from the East. so IF it was Hayhoe that went to see Chelmsford it was much much earlier, possibly 10ish or so. Then Barker is wrong. Alternatly Barker was right about the timing and just got the name wrong.

Cheers

I member of Chelmsfords party recorded he received the message at if I remember correctly 930am which took Hayhoe 1 hour 20 min and say Chelmsford orderd him back to the camp at 945 and to say it would of took him the same amount of time perhaps a little longer he would of returned just after 11am and didnt Raw leave the camp to search for the Zulu at 11:15am that means Hayhoe would off arrived as things was developing poor guy.

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:20 pm

Aussie
As I posted If LC did receive a message and sent him back then Barker is wrong.

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:46 am

90th
Gary I will be in RD in a couple of hours. I'm going through to iSandlwana tomorrow morning and will have a look at the abortion to see if they have progressed at all. (I doubt it).

Cheers

Subject: Durnford's Retreat Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:51 pm

Hi Frank
Cheers mate for that , I'm thinking the same probably nothing been done . Sad

90th

Subject: Re: Durnfords retreat. Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:05 am

Morning Gary
I'm at King Shaka ready to head back to Cap Town. We were both wrong mate, theres been a fare amount of work done on the bridge with the side abutments finished in natural stone caisons, looks a lot better.
Had a a long chat with Sally, shes just finished renovating the church ( Money donated after Robs death) its looking really good, good job by her and her volunteers. Also had a word with her about using her map on the forum, no issues there at all. As she said its been used every where including being turned into table mats.
Isandlwana is bone dry at preent, the drought continues. I walked over the RD without getting my feet wet. The battlefield itself has a new (ish) cartaker, an ex guide called Joseph. Ive known him for a number of years, good bloke who is pretty dedicated to his job.
Great weekend now back to reality.

Cheers

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