Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition

Subject: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Does anyone have an original 2nd edition of Mack & Shad published in 1882?
I have a 1st edition which contains the note that the service records of the civil surgeons did not arrive before the publication date and therefore could not be included (like Thirkill's photo).
I'm hoping that they were then included in the 2nd ed.
I'd be very grateful if someone can tell me whether they were!
Thanks in advance!

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:00 pm

Is this what your looking for Julian.
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Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:33 pm

Hi
Thanks - I assume that's from the 2nd ed.
If so then you'll see that it's the same as the 1st ed. - the last line says it all!!

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

I am now seriously looking for the 1882, i have never
come across one, the detail's in subsequent edition's
are the same. the 1973 and the 1995 edition ( which )
contain's JY's comprehensive index. )

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Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Harold Raugh's bibliography gives Low,Marston, Searle and Rivington as publishers of the first edition in 1880. He says the reprint in 1882 was published by J B Hayward and Son, but doesn't call it a second edition as such.- I wonder if that is confusing things (ie there was no second edition just a re-print by a different publisher). Then re-printed again by Eyre and Spottiswoode in 1973, Hayward in 1978, and Greenhill in 1995.

Steve Reinstadtler

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:10 am

Steve,
Yes, that could well be the answer. Sorry, should have checked the publisher. Wild-goose chase.
Still, all the same, it would be interesting to see if there are any differences between the two...on the off chance!

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:57 am

The 1882 edition includes the photograph of Lt. Thirkill of the 88th, which is absent from 1880 edition, as far I am aware that is the only difference.

1880 edition also includes the Medical Officers erratum slip, regarding the wrong pagination.

Raugh has obviously made a faux pas.

JY

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

JY

In retrospect I think you are right. LMSR had published their companion volumes on the Afghan War in 1882 and probably took the opportunity to revise the earlier Zulu War book at the same time (perhaps in a slightly smaller format). In both cases, the subsequent "Hayward" editions replace the LMSR publishers name with their own but otherwise present them as facsimiles - very confusing. In passing, I note that the 1882 Zulu War edition says it contains 62 cabinet photographs and biographical notes compared to 60 in the 1880. Thirkill is clearly one, but is there another?

Steve

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

Harold Raugh's bibliography gives Low,Marston, Searle and Rivington as publishers of the first edition in 1880. He says the reprint in 1882 was published by J B Hayward and Son, but doesn't call it a second edition as such.- I wonder if that is confusing things (ie there was no second edition just a re-print by a different publisher). Then re-printed again by Eyre and Spottiswoode in 1973, Hayward in 1978, and Greenhill in 1995.... from Steve.

Well the 1973 edition is definitely J B Hayward and son. Eyre & Spottiswoode merged with Methuen in
the early 1970's. 1995 was by Lionel Leventhal and Greenhill Book's. Sampson Low, Marston, Searle, & Rivington, for the 1880 first edition, so who published the second?. and who published the 1978 ed.

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:29 pm

Steve
I'm not aware of any second missing photo in the 1st ed. I think the 60 must have been a typo for 61.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I suppose so Julian. None of which gets me any nearer identifying the original author of the Isandhlwana map. Presumably the 1879 RE Journal can be found at Chatham - anywhere else ? (British Library I suppose).

Steve

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:09 pm

One of the copyright libraries - the BL, UL Cambridge, Bodleian, UL Edinburgh - and probably at the Senate House Library, London.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

rusteze wrote:: JY

In retrospect I think you are right. LMSR had published their companion volumes on the Afghan War in 1882 and probably took the opportunity to revise the earlier Zulu War book at the same time (perhaps in a slightly smaller format). In both cases, the subsequent "Hayward" editions replace the LMSR publishers name with their own but otherwise present them as facsimiles - very confusing. In passing, I note that the 1882 Zulu War edition says it contains 62 cabinet photographs and biographical notes compared to 60 in the 1880. Thirkill is clearly one, but is there another?

Steve

Bonjour Steve,
Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that the other is Standish Vereker.
Amitié.
Fred

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Steve,
If my memory is not faulty I read this information (about William Standish Vereker) in "A Review of the South African Campaign of 1879, probably in the preface. Actually, I haven't this book at hand.
Contrary to the others, he was not an imperial Officer.
Amitié.
fred

Subject: Mackinnon & Shadbolt Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:45 pm

I've always wondered why Vereker who wasn't an Imperial Officer is in Mack and Shad ? .
90th

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Family's link, I think...

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:01 pm

ymob
Vereker's photo is definitely in the 1st ed. I'm looking at it!

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

I am definitively senile...

Subject: Mackinnon & Shadbolt Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:10 pm

Yes Frederic I think you're right , the family connection probably had something to with him being listed in the book .
90th Salute

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

Connection's indeed. John Vereker, 6th Viscount Gort, brilliantly conducted
the Dunkirk evacuation, one look at his record left me gobsmaked.

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:17 pm

Steve
What seems to be the original map.
Pietermaritzburg Archives. map M2-146. Cat 282, Acc 297. Its housed with a group of provincial maps, all originals.
Just a thought.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Hi Frank

M2-146, Cat282, Acc297 in Pietermaritzberg Archives is a printed map extracted from the Royal Engineers Journal of 1 June 1879. It then appears in Mack and Shad in 1880. I am assuming that it formed part of an article in the RE Journal - question is by who? Someone, somewhere (on this forum or somewhere else) must have referred to it else why would I have a copy? Frustration!

Steve

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:01 pm

I'm pretty sure you got it from me and to me when I photographed it I had the impression it was original,

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I think it must have been from you. But it is surely printed, perhaps with some colour added?
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Steve

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:43 pm

Last time I was in the archives I posted quite a few items, this was one of them along with two old survey maps of iSandlwana.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

The mystery deepens. The same basic map appears in Hallam Parr's "Kaffir and Zulu Wars" 1880 - minus the track of Durnford and the RB. Looks like the go to map for that date but who did it!. I don't have the HP book - does it give any attribution for the map?

Steve

Posts : 272 Join date : 2010-08-13

This might be of interest re the discussion of an 1882 edition of Mac and Shad. I posted this on the forum some years back. Both copies mentioned below share the 1880 date.
PostSubject: Poor Astley Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:00 pm
Hi John, I think Astley Fellowes Terry quite enjoyed himself in the 60th and liked having his photograph taken. Without explanation, Astley's role in the Zulu War was left out of the large volume "The South African Campaign, 1879" by Mackinnon and Shadbolt. There was no mention of him even serving in South Africa. So, evidently quite put out at being omitted and demonstrating an immense amount of "pull"(possibly Masonic)---Terry had the publisher make a special edition of the same Mac and Shad in which he was now included and his efforts in escorting the captured king from the Ndaza krall to the Black Umvolosi as well as commanding two companies of the 3/60th were inserted in the text. Additionally he had his frontispiece put in (see first photograph I inserted) and a photographic copy of Illustrated London News showing him guarding the sleeping king while in Zululand. I know this because I have Terry's personal copy of the Mac and Shad. If you will check all other copies that are out there (see page 347), including reprints, you will notice that poor Astley was omitted.
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Subject: Mackinnon & Shadbolt Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:36 am

Hi Ron
I certainly wasn't aware of that , and yes Terry isn't mentioned in my edition. So it appears there are the two editions ? .
90th

Posts : 272 Join date : 2010-08-13

Yes, both the volume without mentioning Terry was published in 1880, and the volume with the Terry information inserted is 1880. My thinking is that the one with the Terry information is a "one of" done up at Terry's insistence or as a personal favor.

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:11 am

Steve the Hallam Parr series, there are 3 of them, indicating the progress of the battle are so close that I would say they were traced from the RE map.

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:50 am

I had no idea about the Terry 'edition' - more of a special commission rather than an edition as it wasn't available to the public - fascinating!
I wonder if there are other such commissions for others omitted?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Ron/Julian

What is also interesting is that Terry does not appear again in the 1882 edition when Thirkill does. I am surprised that they went to all the trouble of resetting the type in the first edition to include Terry (meaning at least two pages had to be re-arranged) and seemingly reverted to the old layout for the second edition. I note too that all of the cabinet photos in the second edition are in oval frames (is that the case for the first edition?). I suppose this memorial volume, alongside the two on the Afghan War, might have caused a fair amount of rivalry to be included among the officers at the time. I wonder if the publishers archive still exists, there might be some interesting correspondence! I began to explore a similar question on Fanny Colenso's publishers Chapman and Hall, some of whose archive is held by Reading University.

Frank

I agree that Hallam Parr has also used the RE map. Assuming that it was originally compiled by an RE officer with knowledge of events, who might that be in May/June 1879 I wonder?

Steve Reinstadtler

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:47 am

Steve
Norris Newman composed his map in February. That was really the first pretty accurate attempt. I'm almost certain where he got his information from, watch this space.
Symons produced his map some time later, not to sure exactly when. In between there were sketches from Gardner, Essex and Smith Dorrien. And of course later the James and Anstey
and of course the Wylde series

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:55 am

The is the possibility that when Noggs' map was published ( it was pirated in various publications) then it was copied for the RE in June. If that was the case the field is wide open, even the editorial staff or any RE officer based in Natal really. Good Luck with that mate.

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:56 am

Sorry before I'm castigated, there were other maps with variation on the Noggs theme.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Yeah, tricky. Wyld is an interesting possibility who also places east at the top of the page - but as a commercial cartographer I tend to think he based his on something else. Noggs is in the more traditional north/south orientation but there are also some similarities. Look forward to your further revelations.

Steve

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:42 pm

If you consider the time it took Noggs to get his map out and published it was pretty damned good. Frederic has no doubt chapter and verse on the publication dates. I think his, Noggs, was the font of all knowledge and the switch in orientation was due to the publication orientation or editorial needs. I have to admit Ive never seen an edition of the RE Journal but I'm willing to speculate it was a portrait format.
Just my opinion.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:09 pm

To return to the reason behind my original posting of this thread...I was looking for the service record of a Dr Lewis William Reynolds. Someone told me that he was the Doctor attached the 1st squadron IMI(note: the medical doctor, NOT the vet) but he couldn't remember where he'd read it.
I wanted to find out if that was true.
Reynolds's diary was published in 2006 (see the thread on the book's title 'A Civil Surgeon [Serving with the British Army in the Anglo-Zulu War]') - If anyone has a copy I'd be grateful if he could check it to see which unit Reynolds was posted to.

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

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Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 pm

Xhosa
Many thanks for this - I now see he was with the 2nd squadron IMI.

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Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:10 pm

Xhosa
Actually - it is even better. I see from my notes that I knew there was a doctor with the 2nd squadron (because he is referred to) but he was nameless. Your post has cleared that up nicely for me.
I don't suppose you have up your sleeve a list of the members of the 2nd squadron who were from the 88th Regt do you? I know the name of just one OR from it - the rest's MI service is nowhere recorded.

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

Hmm, not to hand Julian, i have a history of the 1st battalion, i will hunt
it out and see if that can help.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank Allewell wrote:: If you consider the time it took Noggs to get his map out and published it was pretty damned good. Frederic has no doubt chapter and verse on the publication dates. I think his, Noggs, was the font of all knowledge and the switch in orientation was due to the publication orientation or editorial needs. I have to admit Ive never seen an edition of the RE Journal but I'm willing to speculate it was a portrait format.
Just my opinion.

Cheers

Bonjour Frank,
About the map drawn by "Noggs", I am really sorry but I have nothing to add to the comment written by Julian Whybra in his essay "Gunner William Taylor's Escape from Isandhlwana", (fn.64, p.32).
Inside (p.33), there is a copy of the map published in the Daily Telegraph.
According to Julian, the map published in the Standard "contained a typographical error".
Amitié.
Fred

Subject: Re: Mackinnon & Shadbolt 2nd edition Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:38 am

Xhosa
Checked that - nothing there!

Subject: Mackinnon & Shadbolt Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:21 am

Les and Julian
As an aside I pulled out the Lewis Reynold's Diary , saw that he marched from Helpmekaar with Rainforth (he doesn't mention Upcher's Co ? ) at 3.30 pm to RD on the 22nd Jan , he also said after 60 min ( 5 Miles ) they were approached by 5 men riding furiously , who said they'd crossed the river and 3 others that were with them had drowned , Reynold's mentions the Column hurried on as he said to bring relief to the post , they got within 2 miles of the drift and were told it was on fire , and that they should return to Helpmekaar and fortify that post . I hadn't remembered that he present on that march .
90th Shocked

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