ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

From the Medal Roll at Kew
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:02 pm

Hi Steve
Dates fit with the withdrawl of the FLH from the Eastern Transvaal. But any thoughts as to why would he, as Gary suggests, be entitled to a Zululand 79 bar?

Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:34 pm

Hi Frank
In ' For God , Queen & Colony ' by Terry Sole , the Frontier Light Horse Roll is from Aldershot and dated 1 / 9 / 80 , it has Trooper Tinling 232 , Date of Enrolment 27/ 8 / 78 - Discharged 31/ 10 / 78 Engaged against Sekukuni . These dates tie in with the First Campaign against Sekukuni Commanded by Col Rowlands VC who basically had to turn back due to a lack of water . There are only 3 or 4 others who are listed as ( only ) seeing service against Sekukuni , these other 3 or 4 were discharged after Tinling . They are all in the Forsyth Roll as being entitled to the Clasp 1879 . I doubt he was with Wood's Column , as the Roll clearly lists many who did fight against the Zulus & the Gaikas - Galekas for that matter , as we know nothing is set in stone when looking through records and Rolls etc .
Cheers 90th

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi Gary
Fully agree the records are shrouded in mystery. My queerie is he serves against Sekukuni and is discharged when hostilities were broken of in October 78. No more heard from him after 78 so cannot understand why he would be entitled to a 79 bar? Another of the mad mad mysteries?
Cheers Mate

Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi Steve
And thanks , wish I knew how to do that , would make explaining things so much easier , as I said in my previous post , the other 3 or 4 men who discharged their Service in 1878 ( along wih Trp Tinling ) and only listed as fighting Sekukuni , are also mentioned in the other Rolls as being entitled to the 1879 clasp . This seems to be way in which the medal was bestowed . The Sekukuni problem wasn't sorted till Oct - Nov 79 which probably explains the 1879 Clasp. Hope this makes sense ? .
90th

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Hi Gary/Frank

I think the answer is that he is entitled to a bar because he meets the criteria for engagement against Sekukuni, the 1877/78 wasn't appropriate so all that was left was 1879 (and as Gary says the Sekukuni affair wasn't settled until 1879), so although he was discharged in 1878 he gets the 1879 bar rather than none.

Steve

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:54 pm

Hi Steve/GAry
Sorry Gary our posts crossed, that makes sense. Just to put it to bed though are there any exceptions, in that, any other FLH that served in 78 that got a 79 bar or a 78 bar?

Cheers

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:56 pm

Again crossed posts, question answered.

Cheers

Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:00 pm

90th

Posts : 6 Join date : 2016-07-20

Wow, this is all very interesting, you gents really know your stuff. I have Tinling's medal, came down through the family, not sure how it originally got into our family though. So any tips on how to confirm value, and parties that might be interested in buying it ?

Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:05 am

Markus Auction Houses can give you an estimation , actually we have a medal dealer on here , I'll let him possibly contact you . As I said in an earlier post you would be looking at 750 + GBP's , if there was any documented evidence he was with Wood's Column , ie at Kambula or Hlobane , it would certainly be worth in excess of 850 + GBP's .
90th Shocked

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:06 am

The Army order sanctioning the South Africa Medal 1877-8-9 was a General Order by HRH the Field Marshal C-i-C, dated 1st August 1880, No. 103. The First Sekukuni War was not included in the operations qualifying for receipt of this medal.
Section III of this Order stated that the Queen approved a clasp to be attached for various operations; for operations in the Zulu and Sekukuni campaigns the Year on the clasp was to be 1879.
An Amending Order (General Order, October 1880, No. 134, Section I) stated that "The provisions of GO 103 of 1880 will apply to the Forces engaged against Sekukuni in 1878".
Thus, by GO 134 Section I Tinling qualified for receipt of the medal, and by GO 103 Section III the clasp was to state '1879'.
A case of the Army doing things by the Book, even when they seem illogical to C21st minds.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Well done Julian. I remember going behind the scenes at the Army Medals Office on official business when it was at Droitwich in Worcestershire. It dealt with all claims for the issue of medals and bars going way back. It relied on huge volumes of notes compiled over the years about relevant service dates and locations which had to be proved before entitlement was approved. Specialists in each campaign, some very ancient themselves, were the guardians of the information. As you say, the Army went by the book even when the decisions looked faintly ludicrous. They will still issue 2WW medals if you can prove entitlement - I got my old Dad's a while ago, he had never bothered to claim them when he was alive.

Steve

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:36 pm

rusteze
Interestingly enough I am just about to try and do the same for my dad. His army service total of days fell just short of the number entitling him to claim medals but part of his subsequent war service was in the AFS, which would take him over the entitlement barrier. I've been told all AFS records were bombed and destroyed in 1945 and therefore I won't be able to prove his service. Whether that's true or not I don't know but the AFS became the NFS in 1941 and I believe its records have just been/are being transferred to Kew whilst the NFS Museum is refurbished. So I shall have another avenue to explore.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I don't know about AFS records specifically, but I do believe that much more survives than they usually let on (or perhaps even know about!). I also spent some time back in the 80's working at the MOD records store at Hays where all the 2WW service papers are held (or were). None have so far been released, but when they are people are going to be impressed. There were acres of shelves on multiple levels. The Medals Office would access those records to try and prove entitlement.

I think the Army Medals Office has now been co-located with the RAF Personnel records at RAF Innsworth near Gloucester. I went there as well many years ago. Being the junior service, they were inordinately proud of their state of the art file recovery system - no computers then. They had an amazing mechanical system that located a persons file and, through a system of cogs wheels and chains, spat it out of a huge letterbox contraption. A bit like Willie Wonka's chocolate factory! The Army on the other hand would simply send a porter into the bowels of the archive with a trolley to try and find an individual soldiers file. Gone for days sometimes!

Hope you get your Dad's medals. If you do they will come in a little cardboard box just like in the 1940's - indeed just like the Crimea medal did a hundred years before. Some things never change.

We are a bit off topic!

Steve

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:22 pm

We are. But many thanks for the brief digression. Sorry, all.

Posts : 6 Join date : 2016-07-20

Hi 90th, you mentioned their is a medal dealer on this forum. How do I go about confirming value of the medal I have, and go about sellling it ? Any advice would be much appreciated.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:13 am

Markus135
I've sent you a Priv Msge .
90th Salute

Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand

A bit late to the party I know ...
I have a letter from a great aunt describing the exploits of her father, one Edward Syvester Archer. In the letter she states that his brother was an Isandhlwana escapee. Edward Sylvester Archer (b 1855) was in the Natal Carbineers and later a captain in the Imperial Light Horse. The brother in question was either John William (b 1852) or more likely Cornelius (b 1853). In the Boer War, Cornelius was an "Imperial Guide" kia in 1900 in Greylingstad.
I have searched through the various lists of survivors and not seen an Archer on any of them. If anyone could have a look into this, it would be much appreciated.
Great work being done here!
Steve

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Wed May 16, 2018 6:02 am

Hi,

I'm sure someone will be able to tell you on the forum.

If not - have you tried contacting the modern regiment - to see if they have any records.

I think the contact e-mail is - carbineers@gmail.com

Would it be possible that your man was out with Dartnell and family 'tradition' has him a survivor from Isandlwana? Not through nothing malicious but perhaps it was said (in the family) that JW or 'was at' Isandlwana and it was taken as him being in the battle.

I'm sure that everybody but especially Julian Whybra would be interested in the contents of the letter.

Its no help but ES Archer was involved in the Siege of Ladysmith.

Cheers

Sime

Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand

Thanks for that Sime.
I'm going on very little information here!
The letter is mostly about ES Archer about whom I have been able to collect a fair bit of info.
To quote the letter: "His brother was one of the three who escaped the massacre of Insandhlwana."
I don't know what to make of that - which three was she referring to. The chances are she was just going on some handed down family story, which may not have had much factual backing.

That's very interesting about ES Archer being involved in the Seige of Ladysmith ... do you have more info about that?

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Wed May 16, 2018 7:34 am

Hi Steve,

Its very intriguing - the NCs had at least 5 survivors - Troopers Muirhead, Fletcher, Edwards, Baker and Grainger, at Isandlwana (as far as I can find on this forum site)

So I do not know, who the 'three' refers to.

This site has entries regarding Archers in the Boer war including 'C' - type in 'Archer' in the search bit

https://www.angloboerwar.com/index.php?option=com_grid&gid=2&p=580

And this site records ES being at Ladysmith

https://molegenealogy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/boer-war-natal-carbineers.html

Ta

Sime

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Wed May 16, 2018 7:41 am

Archer C Guide Demise: Killed in action 17 Dec 1900
Place: Greylingstad
Source: In Memoriam by S Watt Corps of Guides

Archer E S 59 Trooper Also served NC
Source: Nominal roll in WO127 Natal Volunteer Composite Regiment

Archer E S 465 Trooper Served 29 Sep 99 to 31 May 02.
Source: Nominal roll in WO127 Natal Carbineers

Archer E S 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA rolls Imperial Light Horse

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Wed May 16, 2018 9:08 am

Sorry, Steve, but there's no Archer among the survivors from the NC or any other unit. The questions I'd ask are whether the letter is dated - contemporary or from years later, was the great aunt similar in age to her brothers or a very much younger sister - and therefore might have got her facts wrong (like the three esacpees). Did the relevant brother serve in the NC at all and if he did what was his date of joining?

Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand

Thanks for all that info Sime - gives me a lot to follow up on regarding ES.

And thanks for checking that out Julian.
I did have my doubts about the accuracy of the info in the letter. I suspect Cornelius Archer probably didn't serve in the NC at all. At best he may have been peripherally involved. I think we can put the matter to rest. The letter was written as you say, long after the events, in 1979, by the daughter of ES Archer when she was already quite advanced in years, based on stories she had been told when she was young.

Anyway, really appreciate the assistance
Steve

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 am

Hi Julian

Was it possible that 'Archer' was out on Dartnell's Recon?

Do you know if I 'roll' of those with Dartnell exists?

Thanks

Simon

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi All

There is a John Archer listed under the Border Horse.

Corporal John Archer, Border Horse, Survived Holbane on 28/03/1879 (For God, Queen and Colony by Terry Sole)

Could fit with the family stories?

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 pm

Hi,

I spose its not impossible.

If you think about it, as in (seemingly) majority of the modern Zulu War books - there is only Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift.....maybe it was the same, at the time of writing the letter....someone escaped from a battle in the Zulu War, which was naturally said to be Isandlwana.

In my family, my great uncle was said to be at Anzio.....he may have been at/in Anzio sometime in WW2 but was he 'at' Anzio.....I'm damned if I can find out.......

I will require a little more snooping on Steve's behalf but personally I wouldn't give up until, I get to the root of the story (if possible).

cheers

Sime

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Wed May 16, 2018 8:58 pm

There was a Sergeant Archer serving in the Buffalo Border Guard, sadly no forename or initial shown, from Dundee, Natal.

JY

Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand

You're right Simon - more snooping is what's needed. There's often at least some truth to many stories which may seem at first a bit off.

Thanks to @1879graves some good stuff has come to light.

My ggfather ES Archer had a brother John born 1852.
It seems that it was him who was refered to in the letter, not Cornelius as I originally thought.
The brothers were all Natal born lads, so it makes sense that they belonged to "local" units, Border Horse for example.
And it wasn't Isandhlwana as stated in the letter, but actually Hlobane.
I've read three different accounts of the battle of Hlobane, some referenced on this very forum.
One account actually mentions Cpl J. Archer of the Border Horse:
"Here Sgt C. Brown and Cpl J. Archer of the Border Horse saved one of the unhorsed troopers of the FLH as he was about to be overtaken and killed. Eventually the survivors were pursued by only three Zulu who were waylaid and shot."
https://www.1879zuluwar.com/t13-the-battle-of-hlobane

All accounts say that only a handful escaped - could this be the "three" refered to in my Aunt's letter?
Possibly three members of the Border Horse?
I'm pretty sure this discussion should be moved over to the Hlobane thread?
Very exciting stuff.

(My slow responses - I'm about 12 hours out of sync with most of you, being down at the bottom of the world)

Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand

@John Young
Thanks for that - members of the family lived around the Newcastle area, so connection with the BBG is quite possible.
Needs more research
- Steve

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 7:09 am

Hi Steve,

The British did get a right wigging at Hlobane (loosing about a third of their strength) Weatherley's Border Horse being particularly badly 'handled' and mauled, (losing roughly 40 or so out of 50-60, including one POW - Ernest Grandier) I am not sure of the exact figure, unless I get up to my book stash (in the loft).

One book about Hlobane is "Blood on the Painted Rock" by Lock & Quantrill - its a much overlooked battle (apparently Ian Knight is writing a new book about it).

This site has an article by Huw Jones - http://www.natalia.org.za/Natalia/no27.html

It does seem to me that at some point the 'old girl' was told that 'the three of them escaped' and it has evolved into 'one of the three that escaped', implying that only three escaped.......

Cheers

Sime

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 7:50 am

Theres information in 'The Boiling Cauldron' by Huw Jones. Page 273. It outlines the story that Cpl J Archer and Sgt C Brown saved a FLH officer named Palmer.
' The story arose because one Palmer, said to be an officer of the FLH, was cut of and Archer went back, shooting two Zulu and knocking a third from Palmers horse whilst Dennison and Trooper Lewellyn Sawyer gave covering fire.'
That could, Steve, give a starting point to the THREE escaping story.
The report emanated from 'The Standard' Tuesday 20May 1879. However no Palmer is listed with the FLH.

Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand

Great stuff Sime and Frank, I will get hold of those books. I can see it is an overlooked battle. And the British did get another good thumping. Maybe with the wounds of Isandhlwana still fresh, Hlobane went a bit unnoticed. The article by Huw Jones provides a great perspective and offers some different takes on some of the events. I look forward to reading the book.

Hmm I wonder who Palmer was with if not the FLH ...

I'll let you know if anything else turns up.

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 11:24 am

Hi Steve,

I have never read the Boiling Cauldron - it is about the Utrecht area and the disputed territory in the run up to the war.

Its a tad on the expensive side (around £35) and maybe a bit 'specialist' (every time I mention it, my wife tells me - its too dear, I wouldn't understand it and there probably isn't many pictures in it, she's kind like that......).

BotPM - is going for around £18 on Amazon and is perhaps (?) more 'battle orientated'.

There is plenty of info on the internet, but it just takes a bit of finding.

I would see if I could find some online passages from the BC and see if you 'get on with it' before getting a copy - especially (maybe) with the shipping to NZ.

Cheers

Simon

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

I have the Boiling Cauldron if i can be of help. xhosa

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 12:50 pm

Les
Scan post and page 273, bottom half of the page if possible.

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

There you go Frank Salute

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Standard 20 May 1879

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 3:24 pm

Hmmmm interesting......he did all that didn't get even a Mention in Despatches?

Despite supposedly (with reference to Palmer) fulfilling one of the main criteria for plaudits and accolades - rescuing an officer.

Why did Buller deny it? Had he slated the Border Horse and its commander?

Finally just who was Palmer????

cheers

Sime

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 4:07 pm

Thanks Les and Andy.
The article itself is a bit confusing at times Simon but yes Archer should have got a lot more than a SAGS.
Brave man Steve, the family rumours are coming together as fact.
Brilliant.

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 4:08 pm

And of course don't loose sight that the store they were heading for was owned by that well know Non Muggle chap

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 4:41 pm

For info
The Standard states that Archer knocked a Zulu off Palmer's horse having stabbed its rider in the back - presumably the rider being Palmer himself. The casualties record no officer of any unit wounded by a stab wound in the back.
The alternative is that another European rider had leapt into 'Palmer's' saddle and was then stabbed.
Or the writer was mistaken...

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 4:49 pm

psst....psst....Frank.....

Promise you won't tell anyone (especially 90th).....but it took me ages to work out what SAGS was.....

Being as you are an ex military man, I thought it was some Army slang and I was looking on Google for it.....

At one point, I even decided it meant "Sod all Award Good Story though"

Keep it under your hat....

Sime

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi All

On the "Palmer" question.

There is a Trooper Gary Palmer, Ferreira's Horse listed in (For God, Queen and Colony by Terry Sole).

Ferreira's Horse was said to consist of 115 men serving under General Buller.

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 6:35 pm

Unfortunately Ferreira's Horse weren't at Hlobane.

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 6:46 pm

Hi,

Would it be possible that Palmer (FH) was on detachment to the Hlobane Column, for some reason?

Buller denied that an officer of the FLH was saved - which maybe correct, if no such Officer existed and if Buller was tetchy towards the BH and if as implied (in the paper) the FLH abandoned Palmer.

Is there any other Officers in the FLH, Border Horse etc that sounds like 'Palmer' or could be a corruption during interview/typesetting? Maybe Farmer?

I'm just clutching at straws.....

Cheers

Sime

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Many Thanks Julian

We can rule him out.

Salute

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

SRB1965 wrote:: Hi,

Would it be possible that Palmer (FH) was on detachment to the Hlobane Column, for some reason?

Hi Sime

Anything is possible, you never know.

Frontier Light Horse - Ferreira's Horse
Palmer and a few of his men. Could be attached?

You need to study mo

Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu May 17, 2018 7:02 pm

There was a Sub Lt H.W Parminter involved in Hlobane but I think he was in the Border Horse and was killed.......

But it does sort of sound like Palmer.......

» Rorke's Drift Survivors 1932