The silent men who do their duty

"England owes her greatness to the silent men who do their duty" abstract taken from the Morning Post dated the 13th of November 1912 following the passing of the late Sir Frederick Richards former Commander and Admiral of the Fleet.

"During this war it has been necessary for the complete efficiency of the service that I should keep two offices open, the one at Durban and the other at Simons Bay. The clerical labour has been very great and communication and arrangement of details of transport and other services incessant. The telegraph was constantly at work and in this duty the services of Mr Carlisle, my secretary at Durban, and Mr Trew, assistant paymaster at Simons Bay, have been invaluable and I have much pleasure in recommending both these officers to the most favourable consideration of their Lordships."

Frederick W Richards - Commodore - Simons Bay September 13th 1879

My great great grandfather was Secretary John Carlisle RN, later Paymaster in Chief, who had arrived at the West Coast of Africa on board HMS Boadicea having transferred from HMS Active, the last square rigged naval ship to leave Portsmouth. I have often been told he was one of those silent men who did their duty, but would be grateful for further information regarding the likely role he played during the Zulu conflict, those with whom he would had served, and what life would have been like for a naval gentleman during the time.

seankeeliher. Welcome to the forum..

Do you have any photographs of your Great Great Grandfather. "John Carlisle" Or any further information on him.

Thank you littlehand for your kind welcome to the forum

I do have some pictures of John Carlisle of which require scanning; two of which are in Naval Uniform. Regarding further information, I have a a manuscript written by my mother which provides some information regarding his service history which began in 1861 as a RN assistant clerk. In 1865 he was promoted to Assistant Paymaster serving on HMS Hercules. By 1877 he joined HMS Active and by 1879 was serving as Secretary to Commodore Richards, as previously mentioned.

1880 he was promoted to Paymaster and served as Secretary to the Principle Transport Officer in Egypt during the Egyptian wars where he was awarded the Khedive's Bronze Star. 1886 he was recorded as Paymaster in Chief and served as Secretary to the Commander in Chief in the East Indies during the Burma Annexation War (1885-1886).

In 1893 he was recorded as Fleet Paymaster and in 1911 recorded as Paymaster in Chief "Retired". In 1912 he came out of retirement to serve on the committee which organised a memorial to his former commander the late Admiral of the Fleet, Sir Frederick Richards.

Born in Charlton in 1843 he died on the 13th of September 1924 at the Technical Examining Officers residence in Gosport.

Unfortunately I have no written documents or manuscripts telling of his life in the RN, what life was like or the people he served with. However, I hope this provides you with some background information.

Hi Seankeeliher

Welcome to the forum and a great first post.

The only information I can add is the following

He was secretary to the Commadore on the West Coast of Africa during the Zulu War (he was mentioned in Despatches.)

Time spent on shore 17th March 1879 to 11th June 1879 'Boadicea'

Time spent on shore 12th June 1879 to 24th July 1879

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Gosport Cemetery, Gosport, Hampshire, England.

Thank you to 1879 war graves, great site

seankeeliher

Let me add my welcome to the forum. I am looking forward to seeing your photographs of John Carlisle.

Commodore F. W. Sullivan, who was Commodore Richards' predecessor at the beginning of the Zulu War, in his report to the Admiralty before relinquishing command wrote the following:

“I cannot conclude without recording the high sense I entertain of the services rendered me by my secretary, Mr. John Carlisle, during the period of my command, … Mr. Carlisle was recommended to their Lordships notice by me at the close of the war in the Cape Colony; and he has, during the war here, shown the same qualities which called for my thanks on that occasion. I respectfully renew my application for his advancement.”
Signed,
F. W. Sullivan, Commodore

For his service in South Africa John Carlisle was awarded the South Africa Medal with clasp “1877-8-9”

Thank you for sharing the information about your great, great grandfather.


Petty Officer Tom

Seankeeliher. Always to have new members contributing. Looking forward to seeing the photo's of your Great Great Grandfather.

As you are aware I have only been a forum member for no longer than one day. I would personally like to thank Littlehand, Mr Greaves, Petty Officer Tom and the 1879 war graves for their kind words and valuable information regarding Secretary John Carlisle RN.

With in the next day or so I will download and paste copies of the pictures I have of John Carlisle or Faffa as he was fondly remembered by my grand mother.

seankeeliher. Totally agree, excellent first post. Just to make you aware. I have moved this topic to the Naval Brigade section. If you have any problems posting your photos let me know.

As promised two pictures taken some time after the Zulu wars

seankeeliher. You will have to use a photo hosting site like Photobucket. Or you can e-mail them to me and I will post under your name. Which would you prefer.

Hi Seankeeliher.
I would also like to welcome you to the forum and what a fantastic bit of history you are sharing with us . All of us are
looking forward to seeing the photo's of your forebear and you have produced a first posting of a high order .
cheers 90th

Sorry for the delay in posting pictures of Secretary John Carlisle problems with our broadband connection.

I believe the first picture was taken around the late 1880's while the second was taken late 1890's early 1900's

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seankeeliher

Thank you for the photographs. It is always nice to match a face to a name.

Petty Officer Tom

seankeeliher. Great photo's. Do you know what the medals are for.

Dave

I believe one of the medals was the Khedives bronze star awarded to him for his services as Secretary to the Principle transport officer in Egypt during the Egyptian wars

The other two, I am not sure. I will try my best to find out

Hi seankeeliher

Great photos and thank you for sharing them.

Hi Dave

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His medals would be the same as Able Seaman Henry Lee's, see above
South Africa medal with 1879 clasp and the Egypt medal and Khedive star.

Thanks Dave for this

If you have any information on Able Seaman Henry lee would be interesting

All the best for now

Sean

Hi seankeeliher

A little on Able Seaman Henry Lee.

He was a rating aboard HMS Active and was put ashore as part of the Naval Brigade from 19th Nov 1878 until 21st July 1879. He saw service on some 14 ships and shore establishments. He was awarded the South Africa medal with 1879 clasp and the Egypt medal and Khedive star. He joined under an alias since his real name was Aaron Lees. Born in Manchester in 1854 he completed 20 years of service retiring as a 1st class Petty Officer in July 1893. He unfortunately died a few years later on the Isle of Wight, he left one surviving son.

1879graves

Thanks for this, I am trying to build up a a complete picture and library of information on the people that served in the RN during my great great grandfathers service. I have just started out and it will take some considerable time, but eventually I hope to write a topic on my findings with which I will share with anyone that may be interested.

Once again thank you to all that have made me feel so welcome

seankeeliher,

One modification on John Carlisle's medals.. He was entitled to the South Africa Medal with clasp "1877-8-9". Before being Secretaryto Commodore Richards on 'Boadicea', he was Secretary to Commodore Sullivan on 'Active'. (Confirmed on medal roll)

Petty Officer Tom

Hi Petty Officer Tom

Many thanks for the correction on his medals
South Africa medal with 1877-8-9 clasp and the Egypt medal and Khedive star.

Ships in Port 1881

"H M S Vernon" at Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Able Seaman. Henry LEE. Age24 Male Place of Birth (Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire)

Possibly one of those ships.

seankeeliher,

I hope you find this information useful.

Secretary John Carlisle, HMS Boadicea

1 Mar 1843 Born in Charlton, Kent

13 Dec 1861 Entered Royal Navy as Assistant Clerk

12 Dec 1865 Promoted to Assistant Paymaster

30 Apr 1867 Assistant Paymaster (Additional for Chare of Lisbon Hospital) borne on HMS Fisgard (Woolwich)

2 Nov 1868 Assistant Paymaster on HMS Hercules (Iron Screw Ship, Channel Squadron)

13 Oct 1873 Assistant Paymaster on HMS Asia (Flag Ship of the Admiral Superintendent, Portsmouth)

31 Oct 1876 Secretary to Commodore on HMS Tourmaline(Corvette, Cape of Good Hope and West Coast of Africa)

25 Jul 1877 Secretary to Commodore on HMS Active (Corvette, Flag Ship, Cape of Good Hope and West Coast of Africa) during Cape Colony Wars

17 Mar 1878 Secretary to Commodore on HMS Boadicea (Corvette, Flag Ship, Cape of Good Hope and West Coast of Africa) during the Zulu War Mentioned in Despatches, South Africa Medal with clasp “1877-8-9”

30 Mar 1880 he was promoted to Paymaster

23 Oct 1882 Paymaster on HMS Orion (Corvette, Malta) for Transport Service in Egypt

12 Apr 1883 Paymaster, borne on HMS Alexander (Flag Ship, Mediterranean), for service as Secretary to Principal Transport Officer, Egypt. Entitled to Egypt Medal and Khedive Bronze Star

18May 1885 Secretary to Rear Admiral on HMS Bacchante (Corvette, Flag Ship, East Indies) during 3rd Anglo-Burma War. Entitled to India General Service Medal with clasp “Burma 1885-7”

30 Mar 1886 Promoted to Staff Paymaster

29 Nov 1890 Secretary to Vice Admiral on HMS Imperieuse (Cruiser
1st Class, Flag Ship, China Station)

30 Mar 1892 Promoted to the Rank of Fleet Paymaster

1 Mar 1903 Placed on the Retirement List with permission to assume the rank of Paymaster-in-Chief

13 Sep 1924 died in Gosport at the age of 81


Petty Officer Tom

Petty Officer Tom thank you ever so much for the information. Hope all is well.

Sean

Hi Petty Officer Tom

I wonder if you can help, something is puzzling me about John Carlisle Medals

Question - The first photo that Sean posted - Would the uniform be correct for about 1883 - 1884 ?
Question - In the second photo that Sean posted - What sort of date would be correct for that uniform or rank ?

The bit that is puzzling me-

Quote :

18May 1885 Secretary to Rear Admiral on HMS Bacchante (Corvette, Flag Ship, East Indies) during 3rd Anglo-Burma War. Entitled to India General Service Medal with clasp “Burma 1885-7”

This is what the Medal would have looked like. (For those who do not know what it looks like)
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Now if the Second photo of John Carlisle is later than 1886 (he looks older in the second photo) then he should be wearing a total of four Medals

1879graves,

I also wondered about the medal for Burma not being on the uniform in the second photograph. My source for including it is:

“War medals and their history”
By William Augustus Steward

“Burma, 1885-7.—To the crews of H.M.S. "Bacchante," "Woodlark," "Osprey," "Ranger," '' Mariner," "Turquoise," and "Sphinx," which took part in the third Burma War, that resulted in the disposition of Theebaw and the annexation of Burma, the medal with the bar for BURMA 1885-7, as described on page 138, was granted. Those awarded to the navy were generally impressed in tall upright Roman capitals.”

The answer to your first question is: ‘Yes’, the uniform is appropriate for the 1883-84 time frame.

The answer to the second question is: ‘The same time frame is appropriate for the second photograph’; his rank in both photographs appears to be the same, so the second photo might not have been taken that much later.

I don’t know the date for the authorization of the Burma 1885-7 medal, but I feel sure it took a couple of years (Zulu War medal was not authorized and delivered until 1881 and later) I would not think he would be wearing a fourth medal until 1889 or later.

seankeeliher,

Do either of the photographs have the date on them? Do you have his medals, or know where they are?

Petty Officer Tom

Petty Officer Tom

Unfortunately I don't have any of his medals.I have enquired with other family members before and it is a mystery as to what actually happened to them. Regarding the dates on the pictures they are not visible so I could only assume as to the time they where taken. The only other information the family has on John Carlisle are letters sent and received between the committee members that formed part of the funeral possession of Sir F.W.Richards.

I will look again and if I do come across any further information I will add it to the forum

Sean

On the subject of the campaign medals, which are worn in chronological order, one would be able to date the photos of John Carlisle as being after 1882, but sometime before 1888, which would put him in his early 40s.

However, he does look older than this, but he may simply have lost or misplaced his Burma medal in the photos; fighting men of that era were really not gong hunters and they would have considered misplacing a campaign medal or 2 as a very trivial matter and quite unimportant.

(I once met a Battle of Britain pilot who had given away his medals to someone who had simply shown an interest in them - not me, regrettably. He really considered them of no importance).

Actually, having had another look at Carlisle's photos, to contradict myself, taking away the facial hair, early 40s would be my estimate of his age actually.