Latest topics | » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Yesterday at 6:37 pm by Tig Van Milcroft » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySun Nov 17, 2024 11:25 pm by Julian Whybra » Lieutenant M.G. Wales, 1st Natal Native ContingentSat Nov 16, 2024 12:32 pm by Matthew Turl » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:55 pm by Julian Whybra » Royal Marine Light Infantry, ChathamThu Nov 14, 2024 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom » H.M.S. ForesterThu Nov 14, 2024 4:07 pm by johnex » Samuel PoppleWed Nov 13, 2024 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai » Shipping - transport in the AZWSun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183 |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 am by Julian Whybra » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm by John Young » Samuel PoppleTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » John West at KambulaMon Nov 04, 2024 11:54 pm by MKalny15 » How to find medal entitlement CokerFri Nov 01, 2024 9:32 am by Kev T » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosThu Oct 31, 2024 1:42 pm by lydenburg » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Mon Oct 28, 2024 8:18 am by SRB1965 » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Sun Oct 27, 2024 11:32 am by SRB1965 |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
Guest Guest
| Subject: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:27 pm | |
| An interesting scenario has cropped up during my reading of the book A Guide To Military Criminal Law by Michael J. Davidson. On page 70, an incident is described which should cause a bit of discussion, I hope -
'In June 1994 a B-52 at Fairchild Air Force Base crashed, due to the unsafe flying of a pilot with a reputation for reckless and daredevil antics. The colonel commanding the group was court-martialed, and convicted, of dereliction of duty for allowing the pilot to fly after receiving information that he was reckless and for failing to inquire into the pilot's reckless reputation.'
Now, I'm not taking any sides here, and also understand this is a more modern case study. but it does beg the question, should Chelmsford have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty, going by the above example ? Namely, having Durnford not only command a column, but have him move into hostile territory in support of the invasion as an independent unit, knowing his reputation for being rash, reckless and daring. Not only he, but many knew what kind of man Durnford was, including several if not all his faults. Durnford himself could therefore be forgiven for being put into a situation like Isandhlwana, when higher command considered him able, as it was his duty to obey, not to question. So, was Chelmsford then guilty of not only selecting Durnford, but Pulliene, to be in roles beyond their personal capacity ? Any thoughts ? |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:23 pm | |
| But it could be argued, with the rank of Colonel goes responsibilities along with a job description. The good Lord Chelmsford as far as I'm aware never promoted either of the two inquestion. So the failure to bring them up to standard required in the capacity of a colonel, would not be the fault of The Good Lord Chelmsford. It was the Military system that failed the Good Lord Chelmsford for placing them under his command.
That's why I believe the correct order issued to Durnford was to reinforce not take command. As you say The Good Lord Chelmsford knew his reputation. |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:35 pm | |
| Another blame game question!
In a cock-up as big as iSandlwana, one person alone simply can not be to blame, but several simultaneous cock-ups have to occur simultaneously, a comedy of errors so to speak.
Blame: Chelmsford - he was ultimately i/c of the Central column and the whole invasion of Zululand, perhaps was too complacent, rash and reckless himself. Pulleine - as the OC the camp, for not reorganising the camp defences to take into account that it was now defended by half a column, not a whole one. I am not talking about laagering here, he did not have any kind of plan whatsoever. His Actions On could have been as simple as, "if we get attacked by any Zulus, let's form a square around the ammo truck." Durnford - he was the senior officer present at the camp when things started to kick off. He is to blame for NOT saying to Pulleine "get the bloody camp defences sorted, now, WTF have you been doing all night?" However, he was not an expert in infantry tactics and would probably have not known much about adequate camp defences or plans. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:42 pm | |
| Tasker, it is not yet another blame topic, there's been enough already. I'm talking about the comparison between the modern case study and the aftermath of Isandhlwana. It is not about blaming, but a question asking if there an official option open to the military at the time to forego a Court Of Inquiry and instead conduct an official Court Martial, allowing Chelmsford to get over his side of the story. Nothing to do with blame, but it is to do with clarity. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:49 pm | |
| If you follow this course, you will make it a blame topic by yourself, rather than keeping to the original question. Durnford and Pulliene are out of the equation. It is about Chelmsford's opportunity to get the facts as he would consider worthy of recording put forward in a Court Martial. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:08 pm | |
| I think Durnford has been through the mill enough, having himself been judged and damned by a Kangaroo Court, which is a disgrace in itself even when the victim of it is alive, but when they are absent from it due to being dead, then what must we make of that ?
Kangaroo Court - A kangaroo court or kangaroo trial is a colloquial term for a sham legal proceeding or court. The outcome of the trial by kangaroo court is essentially determined in advance, usually for the purpose of ensuring conviction, either by going through the motions of manipulated procedure or by allowing no defence at all.
A kangaroo court's proceedings deny, hunder or obstruct due process rights in the name of expediency. Typically, a kangaroo court will deliberately abuse one or more of the following rights of the accused :
right to hear full statement of the exact charges made against the accused. right to have adequate time and resources to prepare a defence against the charges. right to summon witnesses. right of cross-examination. right to introduce evidence which supports acquittal of the accused. right not to incriminate oneself. right not to be tried on secret evidence. right to control one's own defence. right to exclude evidence that is improperly obtained, irrelevant or inherently inadmissable. e.g. hearsay. right to exclude judges or jurors on the grounds of partiality or conflict of interest. right to have verbatim stenographic record of the trial proceedings created. right of appeal.
Source - Wikipedia.
So, was Durnford denied any of these rights ?
The subject of this topic is investigating events through the Court Martial of Lord Chelmsford, not to blame, but have clean and decent trial where all facts are heard. |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:49 pm | |
| Well it's a good job, the Zulus prevented Durnford from leaving,or he would have been given all those rights you mentioned in his own court Martial, for desertion. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:07 pm | |
| CTSG, the Zulus didn't prevent Durnford from leaving, as he stayed by choice, so the word desertion doesn't really belong in this topic. Sorry I forgot to respond to your earlier post, as I got sidetracked by the other member. Ranks are just ranks, but you'll find men of the same rank, no matter how high, don't necessarily have the same personalities or qualities that got them to that position. Some may excel in one area while others excel in other areas. Out of curiosity, I asked this already, but why do you have Chelmsford termed a scapegoat in your username ? |
| | | Drummer Boy 14
Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:11 pm | |
| I agree with Colin j.
CTSG, Durnford decided to stay at Isandlwana, the Zulus did not trap him.
I remember reading an acccount from one of Durnfords african sergants begging him to ride away with them, when he didnt the man rode off. If the Sergant could escape then so could Durnford. |
| | | Eric
Posts : 116 Join date : 2011-06-17
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:06 am | |
| Chelmsford deserved to be court martialed for many things.
|
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:12 am | |
| As long as there are impassioned ( blinkered ) defenders of the individual there will be the Blame Game. Not one of the key participants in that era can walk away with any form of dignity.
Chelmsford should, as Senior Military Officer, been made to face an enquiry. Other than the parliamentary attempt.
To try and charge Durnford with desertion is quite frankly a product of a moribund mind. Desertion from where? To where?
If Durnford had lived its possible that his orders of 'Reinforce the camp' could have been brought up to show that he was derelict in responsibility in not doing so.
Pullein cant be charged with anything except being to inflexible.
Regards |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:23 am | |
| Colin's wikipedia definition of a kangaroo court, does by definition, mean that Durnford, Pulleine et al were and are being tried by kangaroo court, whenever their actions are discussed. Being dead, they were never able to defend themselves, their actions or decisions at the time. Chelmsford at the time, blamed Durnford and was ridiculously successful, perhaps due to his very cosy relationship with the Queen, in deflecting any share of the blame away from himself. I think he should have been court-martialled and every line of enquiry explored. Today, a loss of life on that scale would precipitate all of the above for the man in overall charge, but as i am frequently reminded of on here, things were very different back in Victorian times. The life of a soldier was much cheaper then. Yes, the public was horrified back then, but "horrified" back then would not have been quite the same thing as "horrified" today. I think Chelmsford got off too lightly. I think he should of course been court martialled. But we can't apply today's standards to those times. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:24 pm | |
| Eric, the charge would be Dereliction Of Duty, but any related issues would be listed as the Specifications of that charge, which could be quite a few. |
| | | | Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |