Durnford was he capable.2

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:18 am

Hi OH2 .
I realise that , if you read one of 6pdr's earlier posts you'll see I'm replying to the question he asked !. As for you stating Isandlwana '' it was only a stop over point '' , have you read what happened during the second invasion regarding the so called stop overs ?? . You will find that every night entrenchments were hastily produced in one way or another !.
90th.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Intombi. Was that second invasion?
Hlobane. Was that second invasion?

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:44 am

Impi.
Cant you look this up for yourself ??????. You surely must have one book on the war ! . If not google it ! . A quick answer
NO & NO , Intombe was the 12th March , Hlobane 28-29 March . Second invasion from memory was May , they had to wait till the reinforcements had arrived from England !.
90th

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Quote :: Second invasion from memory was May

Are you sure? Anyway you have no doubt just got up or having your breakfast and it's 00:46 here so good night my friend. Salute

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:51 am

Hi Impi .
Yes Im fairly certain . Its nearly lunchtime here , 11.50 am . get some sleep !. :sleep:
90th.

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:24 am

Hi Impi .
I meant to say when you check the dates on the second invasion dont use Wikipedia as a reference source as they are often incorrect !.
90th.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

impi wrote:: Hlobane. Was that second invasion?

Impi

How could they fortify a mountain they were attacking up ?

Cheers

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:06 am

Hi DB .
How's it going ? . Must admit I was wondering what Impi meant when he wrote Hlobane ! scratch

.
Cheers 90th. Salute

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Wood carried out an assault on the enemy stronghold on the plateau of Hlobane Mountain the British were not attacked going up, they engaged on the summit, but was forced to retreat down devils pass, the engagement continued all the was down. If I recall they did spend a night on the plateau. It was the Zulus who had fortified.

Forgot second invasion stated on the 31st May..

Guest

yesterday Tasker write

"A square can not be outflanked. The weight of Zulu numbers at iSandlwana were a problem, but the defensive line being outflanked was the cause of the collapse, ultimately."

Tasker, All this is fine, but you can not put you in the skin of Pulleine and that of Durnford ...

To make a square, you must not do that at the last moment and given the circumstances, and given that Pulleine and Durnford,imagine of the intentions of the Zulus, they would never have given such an order early enough ...

Pulleine obey the tactical instructions left by LC,pour la defence du camp,(see the masterpiece of Julian) and there is no question of square or laager and Pulleine is disciplined...

Also in the Regulations of 1877, it is out of the question to form a square in front of an native infantry attack ...

It will require the slaughter of Isandhlwana is held for the British infantry almost always adopts this formation in this kind of situation...

The main criticism for Pulleine and Dunrford is to have sent their infantry in front of the enemy, too far from the camp and not pushing (at the dawn) reconnaissance on horseback, much farther from the camp and in all directions ...

The Pulleine could have a clear idea of the situation and a square or a laager could beings formed in time ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:18 am

Wow, a lot of posts to get through...a number of factually-incorrect remarks - too many to go through but they've been passed over anyway.
Dave
For info. No British soldier spent a night on Hlobane.
Pascal
Thanks for the compliment but I think you've mistranslated 'oeuvre' in your post. Leonardo produced a masterpiece; I produced a work. There's a big difference in English.

DELETED OFF TOPIC

Guest

Monsieur

Julian produced a masterpiece ... They are no differences in Breton language !

Because what we read it, we can not find anywhere else ...

It has had to wait 133 years to see it.

Among other historians , how many have lost the interest they had for the Zulu war, by dislikes of their work ,since the publication of your masterpiece ?

Au plaisir

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:24 pm

Flattery will get you everywhere!

Guest

What do you want ? It is necessary that I laugh a little :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Henderson, one of Durnford's own troop commanders.

"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do"

DELETED OFF TOPIC.

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Henderson, one of Durnford's own troop commanders...

IIRC, Henderson doesn't come off so well himself in the end.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Quote :: IIRC, Henderson doesn't come off so well himself in the end.

None of the men under Durnford come off so well.

DELETED OFF TOPIC.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:17 pm

Gent's can we please stop with the personal attacks Although it can be rather amusing to read, they are getting ridiculous. It is a complete waste of time and highly unprofessional. If you really feel the need to rip into each other take it to the ring!! This section can be found on the bottom of home page.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Admin please except my sincere apologies.
I fully understand your reasons for deleting my unprofessional messages within my posts.
I must not let the Mongoose's on the forum upset me. It won't happen again. I shall only post information that is relevant to the cock-up Durnford made at Isandlwana that costs the lives of hundreds of men. No more and no less. I hope you will find this satisfactory to amend my wrongs.

I'm just going through a very bad and unpleasent time at the moment.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Quote :: I'm just going through a very bad and unpleasent time at the moment.

Sorry to hear that, I hope everything turns out well. Salute

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:24 pm

Hopefully this might get my point across a bit better. Remain in the camp area, as shown on the map, with the hill of Isandlwana being used as natural rear defence. Allow the Zulu's do all the running to get to the camp, rather than meeting them halfway, the run alone would have exhausted many of them.

I still maintain that had they formed a square or extend line with a good supply of ammuntion they would have held The mounted infantry could have been used to meet them in the open, with the luxury of being able to fall back on the camp on horseback. with covering fire from the Royal Artillery and RB.

It's doesn't matter if the Zulu's couldn't be seen while making their advance, if they wer'e intent on attacking, they would have arrived at some point, met by a solid wall of lead. Although a couple of men
could have been posted on top of Isandwana, clear view all round!

The map also gives us a clear indication of just how far Pulliene sent his men. Far to far?

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Source of map. Ian Knight. I believe?

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

But why would Pulleien think of doing that ? He had been given orders on how he was surposed to defend the camp
by the GOC in South Africa and he had no reason to think they would fail.

Cheers

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

But it must have crossed him mind, that sending the men so far out without a good supply of ammuntion was doomed from the start. Are you saying Pulleine would do nothing other than follow the Generals orders although he had been advised to ignore them considering the situation they were in. I really can't see that the General would have been annoyed if Pulleine had done, what LH has suggested, he would have arrived back at the camp, finding men still alive and the camp still in the hands of the British.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:49 pm

Well said Ray... Salute

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:52 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

6pdr wrote:: But CTSG has nothing else. He just keeps blowing raspberries and calling Durnford names. No judge in the land would allow it, and no jury would find in his favor. But there are no rules of evidence here.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:00 pm

6pdr wrote:

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Henderson, one of Durnford's own troop commanders...

IIRC, Henderson doesn't come off so well himself in the end.

Is this the same cowardly Henderson who deserted RD with his men?

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:07 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Henderson, one of Durnford's own troop commanders.

"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do"

Henderson of course knew what to do - get the heck out of Rorke's Drift and leave Chard and the defenders to their fate.
Undoubtedly, he fled iSandlwana in the same way.
The testimony of Henderson should be ignored as he was obviously just trying to cover his own back.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:16 pm

Ray
1) The men were not so far out.
2) They had a good supply of ammunition. 70 rounds each and possibly 100 each if Chelmsford's orders had been carried out. That was the norm. They were perfectly easily within replenishment range if need be. As it happened they withdrew towards the camp.
3) After Gardner's arrival Pulleine did ignore Chelmsford's orders re packing up the camp and sending on ammo to the Mangeni.
4) Pulleine and Durnford followed Chelmsford's Instructions as being "best suited" for the defence of the camp. As regards disobeying temporarily Chelmsford's orders as carried by Gardner - that was permissible - as for disobeying strict instructions for defensive troop formations that would have been quite another matter.
Nowhere do squares and entrenchment feature in Chelmsford's Instructions to Column Commanders. Had they been, no doubt, Pulleine and Durnford would have opted for them. Interestingly, when the situation became desperate and the camp was being outflanked on the right it was Durnford who tried to draw the troops together - exactly the opposite of what Chelmsford had required - it might have worked if done earlier but by then it was too late.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:18 pm

Quote :: Is this the same cowardly Henderson who deserted RD with his men?

:lol:

Why on earth are you calling him a coward. He was of a Coloinal regiment, he fought at Isandlwana, and escape with his live, only difference is, he went to RD all of the British officers that fled the field completely by passed it. And if Henderson had made that statement, perhaps he felt he had the right to do so. He was there you wasn't... No disrespect intended.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:22 pm

[quote="littlehand"]

Quote :: he fought at Isandlwana, and escape with his live

No, if he had fought, he'd have died, like Durnford and the other men who fought that day.

Read your OWN post on Henderson LH, from which I quote:

"It is curious that Henderson makes no reference in his letters to the remarkable defence of Rorke’s Drift, for, at about 3.30 p.m. he arrived there from Isandhlwana with some one hundred men of the Hlubi and Edendale troops, Natal Native Horse. Lieutenant Chard, no doubt grateful for some reinforcements in light of the disturbing news that Henderson carried with him, put them out as a mounted screen to observe the Drift and the reverse slope of the Oskarberg. Several more survivors from Isandhlwana arrived and attempted to impress upon the garrison the futility of a defence, but Chard’s resolve could not be altered. These survivor’s, however, having seen the horror of Isandhlwana, and believing the same fate would surely befall Rorke’s Drift, continued their flight. "

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:28 pm

And there's me thinking Durnford was credited with holding the gates open so some could escape. So how do you account for all the others that escaped, are they cowards.

Julian the answers to your post have been debated over and over again in this thread. We would just be covering old ground.

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

tasker224 wrote:: The testimony of Henderson should be ignored as he was obviously just trying to cover his own back.

You are astute Tasker. Very Happy

But for now, 'nuff said. Not getting involved

There's only so much truth they can handle in a month. Sad

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:31 pm

Maybe so, LH, maybe so.
Very nice of Henderson, then hey. Durnford holding the fort so he could escape, then he bad mouths Durnford, his saviour.
You are not convincing me about Henderson being a man of great moral fibre and reliability. Salute

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:32 pm

Tasker perhaps you should read Julian's publication "Brave Fugitive"

Guest

All this is fine, but you can not put you in the skin of Pulleine and that of Durnford ...

To make a square, you must not do that at the last moment and given the circumstances, and given that Pulleine and Durnford,imagine of the intentions of the Zulus, they would never have given such an order early enough ...

Pulleine obey the tactical instructions left by LC,pour la defence du camp,(see the masterpiece of Julian) and there is no question of square or laager and Pulleine is disciplined...

Also in the Regulations of 1877, it is out of the question to form a square in front of an native infantry attack ...

It will require the slaughter of Isandhlwana is held for the British infantry almost always adopts this formation in this kind of situation...

The main criticism for Pulleine and Dunrford is to have sent their infantry in front of the enemy, too far from the camp and not pushing (at the dawn) reconnaissance on horseback, much farther from the camp and in all directions ...

The Pulleine could have a clear idea of the situation and a square or a laager could beings formed in time ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:38 pm

You know what's strikes me odd about the whole Zulu War sarnario.

It's alway the Coloinals and friendly Natives that are labelled Cowards. But the British are aways bloodly Hero's if it wasn't for the Coloinals and natives, the British would have had their behinds kicked at every engagement during the Zulu War.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:38 pm

LH, I am sure many of the fugitives were brave, equally others were cowards.
I would wager the publication you refer to would not place Henderson in the former category.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Pascal. Please, please read TMFH.

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Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:42 pm

littlehand wrote:: You know what's strikes me odd about the whole Zulu War sarnario.

It's alway the Coloinals and friendly Natives that are labelled Cowards. .

I hope you are not referring to me, LH.
No one has admired or stood up for the Zulus and their epic victory more than I on this forum; I have also never referred to the friendly natives as cowards in any post. Look if you want to, you'll not find one. I have also questioned the so called "heroism" of Melville and Coghill in particular and any one else, regardless of nationality or race who fled iSandlwana (and in some cases RD as well) on horseback.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:48 pm

Am I missing something. You just called Henderson a coward? And you know nothing about him.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:50 pm

You are missing something, obviously. Read my post again and aim to understand it - it is quite clear.

" I have also questioned the so called "heroism" of Melville and Coghill in particular and any one else, regardless of nationality or race who fled iSandlwana (and in some cases RD as well) on horseback"

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:56 pm

You said "

Quote :: Is this the same cowardly Henderson who deserted RD with his men?

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:57 pm

And again!

Quote :: Henderson of course knew what to do - get the heck out of Rorke's Drift and leave Chard and the defenders to their fate.
Undoubtedly, he fled iSandlwana in the same way.
The testimony of Henderson should be ignored as he was obviously just trying to cover his own back.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:04 pm

LH, did you pass your O Level English? Let me spell it out to you.

"I have also never referred to the friendly natives as cowards"
(NOTE this is plural, nativeS. This would be a generalisation, if one were to refer to the nativeS as a whole).

" I have also questioned the so called "heroism" of Melville and Coghill in particular and any one else, regardless of nationality or race who fled iSandlwana (and in some cases RD as well) on horseback."
(NOTE this is SINGULAR and refers to individuals, regardless as to whether they are British, Colonial or Native)

I suggest you go back to the top and read through the last dozen or so posts again, slowly.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Tasker as it been said before you swing with the wind. It's very clear to all what you said. You have called a man a coward of a colonial force. Your trying to twist it like you always do!!!

Anyway here is something from the best Zulu War author and Historian. Someone who knows what he is on about. No doubt there will be silly replies ( Tasker) instead of constructive.

"1. His first field command - Bushman's River Pass - a military fiasco in which lives were lost uneccessarily and which resulted in him being publicly reviled for his after action conduct - in which he accused his (poorly led) men of cowardice.
2. His second field command - No 2 Column. Precisely 11 days of military operations to get through. Tasked to do nothing in particular, but wait until ordered forward, he even blew that, to the extent that he was threatened with sacking by the GOC, had his command broken up, and was brought under the direct personal supervision of the general.
3. His third field command - 22 Jan Isandlwana. Massacre with the loss of 1400 lives.

His temperament - often remarked upon as excitable and impulsive. 'I am down because I am left behind - but we will see.'
His military experience - he was a road builder and a map maker.
The views of his superiors - decidedly uncomplimentary even prior to Isandlwana.
Public perception - he was a hate figure, save in the ultra liberal Colenso clique where his contrarian outlook found a refuge.

At Isandlwana:

As a Lieutenant Colonel he proposes a tactical course of action which is so wired to the moon that he is taken to task by a lieutenant (Melvill), who tells him - it ain't happening.

Abandoned a lone private solider in the face of the enemy, after first telling him to go back towards the enemy to fetch the body of a dead man. At once both insane and despicable.

Unable to cope with tactical reality or crisis - we can't be surrounded, and if we are, we will cut our way through them (oh really?).

Gets Major Russell and his men killed (and loses Nourse's company from the orbat) as a result of a patently unsound manoeuvre.

Bad tempered with private troopers who were only trying to deliver key operational information (a time-critical warning) to him.

As the senior officer in the field, he can find nothing better to do than spend time unjamming carbines. (which, along with its excessive rates of fire, doesn't say much for the trained state of the much vaunted NNMC).

The truth about the unit he commanded, and which his apologists give him great credit for forming, is that it disintegrated in the face of the enemy, fled the field, and in so doing triggered a wider panic. So much for their 'devotion' to their colonel. Fine post-mortem words from one or two of them, which doubtless you will feel inclined to quote, but there were 250 of them, not one or two, and it didn't actually mean anything when it came down to it. They abandoned him.

So the real man is deeply unpopular, controversial, has been reputationally disgraced in the past, has been living in hope of redemption ever since, is temperamental, impuslive, highly strung, not trusted by the GOC, tactically inept, has already been threatened with the sack in a campaign that is not yet a fortnight old, has virtually no military experience of any real practical worth, (notwithstanding rank and length of service), is at a particualry low personal ebb and is now approaching the end of his career.

...And you have difficulty with the notion that the presence of such a man as the senior officer at the camp, was not in some way linked to the occurrence of disaster"

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Have you had permission to post this,

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:25 pm

Dave wrote:: Have you had permission to post this,

:lol:

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Dave.

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And I'm sure the original author of this won't mind a bit. Because he knows what he is talking about. The best in this field. Salute

And the :joker: just proved my point.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

No doubt this topic will come to a halt now. However I am looking forward to replies. Based on my post from a Zulu War Author & Historian. Salute

Tasker why don't you make the first comment...

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Very Good point.

Quote :: As the senior officer in the field, he can find nothing better to do than spend time unjamming carbines. (which, along with its excessive rates of fire, doesn't say much for the trained state of the much vaunted NNMC).

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