Latest topics | » THE DISTINGUISHED CONDUCT MEDAL![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Sep 05, 2024 11:16 pm by Julian Whybra » 61451 John Evans. Able Seaman.![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:15 pm by Matthew Turl » 9312 Sapper H Cuthbert 5th Field Coy RE![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:53 am by Julian Whybra » Who’s who in this photo?![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Sep 03, 2024 12:44 pm by ianwood » Sir Robert William Jackson ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Sep 02, 2024 10:24 am by Julian Whybra » Memorial to Wolseley![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 8:47 pm by John Young » Lieutenant & Adjutant Spencer Frederick Chichester, 2nd 21st![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:52 pm by Rory Reynolds » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:51 am by Julian Whybra » On this day 28th August, 1879![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:28 am by Julian Whybra » Alfred Ducat - N.N.C. Help with plotting his career![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:58 pm by Rory Reynolds » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 29, 2024 8:46 am by Julian Whybra » Army Pay Department Personnel![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:51 pm by Julian Whybra » Baron Von Steitencron![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:32 am by Julian Whybra » Troop Despatch ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:15 pm by Eddie » Private 35/1430 James Priddle 1/13th Regiment![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 24, 2024 8:09 am by Roobie257 » Zulu powder horn![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 23, 2024 5:22 pm by Rob D » Telescope v. field glasses![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:07 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:14 am by 90th » 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 3:04 pm by johnman » Zulu "Corps"![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:43 am by Hobbes » amaKwenke amabutho![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:23 am by Hobbes » A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility? ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:48 pm by Danny1960 » Hill of the Sphinx for sale open to offers![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 17, 2024 6:44 pm by ciroferrara » Information help please ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 16, 2024 4:44 pm by Roobie257 » Capt. Geo. Shepstone![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 13, 2024 4:14 pm by Julian Whybra » Thomas William george 58th regiment 1880’s SA![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:05 pm by Alstar » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:50 pm by Julian Whybra » Sergt. Woods N.N.C.![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:41 pm by Julian Whybra » Who led the Naval Brigade at Gingindlovu ?![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 08, 2024 9:32 pm by Herbert West » Herbert's Zulu war models![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:06 pm by Herbert West » Studies in the Zulu War volumes![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Aug 07, 2024 2:31 pm by Julian Whybra » 80th Foot Information Request![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:28 pm by Bill8183 » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Aug 05, 2024 7:53 pm by SRB1965 » Hamilton Browne's birthday![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:41 pm by Julian Whybra » 4,000 registered members.![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 04, 2024 6:21 pm by Julian Whybra |
September 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | | | | | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » Memorial to Wolseley![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 8:47 pm by John Young » On this day 28th August, 1879![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Aug 28, 2024 10:37 am by John Young » Alfred Ducat - N.N.C. Help with plotting his career![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Aug 26, 2024 1:34 pm by Rory Reynolds » Zulu powder horn![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 23, 2024 5:22 pm by Rob D » Troop Despatch ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 22, 2024 12:18 am by Eddie » Who’s who in this photo?![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 3:53 am by Danny1960 » Hill of the Sphinx for sale open to offers![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 17, 2024 6:44 pm by ciroferrara » Information help please ![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 15, 2024 7:40 pm by Roobie257 » amaKwenke amabutho![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 15, 2024 6:54 pm by Julian Whybra |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
| | Durnford was he capable.5 | |
|
+18John Young old historian2 Ulundi Dave Ray63 90th 24th John ymob Julian Whybra Frank Allewell impi littlehand Chard1879 ADMIN Chelmsfordthescapegoat rusteze Mr M. Cooper 22 posters | |
Author | Message |
---|
Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:19 pm | |
| Steve, I reckon the RB was just a buggeration, they lagged behind on the way up to Isandlwana and im sure he, Durnford, really in probably exasperation just said they should follow on. Something that's allways nagged me though is that there was no way they would ever be involved in any fight that afternoon, Durnford was miles ahead of them so if he had a fight and then headed back to camp he would just have met them on the way back and told them to turn around. A total waste. OR did he intend to turn around? Just maybe he intended to carry on riding and camp out? Or meet up with Chelmsford? See my point? Martin, the argument has been successfully put forward that Durnford was expecting to find the last sighting, 400 men, that's as many he could have handled. And that many wouldn't have had any effect on Chelmsford, and shouldny have been cause for concern, certainly not enough to ride of the way he did. Sorry but there has to be something else there.
Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:20 pm | |
| John sorry we crossed, does what Ive said make sense in view of your own comments?
Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:23 pm | |
| - Mr M. Cooper wrote:
- John. Most of this that you are quoting was before Durnford arrived, Pulleine was the one who should have done something but didn't.
![Question](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_question.gif) Well of course it was. But you can see, just how many Zulus had be reported in the early hours and just before Durnford arrived. It wasn't 400 was it. What I'm saying is these reports should have given Durnford a clear indication as to the probable numbers threatening the camp. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:29 pm | |
| - springbok9 wrote:
- Steve, I reckon the RB was just a buggeration, they lagged behind on the way up to Isandlwana and im sure he, Durnford, really in probably exasperation just said they should follow on. Something that's allways nagged me though is that there was no way they would ever be involved in any fight that afternoon, Durnford was miles ahead of them so if he had a fight and then headed back to camp he would just have met them on the way back and told them to turn around. A total waste. OR did he intend to turn around? Just maybe he intended to carry on riding and camp out? Or meet up with Chelmsford? See my point?
Martin, the argument has been successfully put forward that Durnford was expecting to find the last sighting, 400 men, that's as many he could have handled. And that many wouldn't have had any effect on Chelmsford, and shouldny have been cause for concern, certainly not enough to ride of the way he did. Sorry but there has to be something else there.
Cheers Springbok. "John sorry we crossed, does what Ive said make sense in view of your own comments?" I think we all know,the RB were a stone in the hoof of Durnfords command. I don't think anyone could argue your point. Yes they were just dragged along, albeit miles behind. Still on the bright side there were survivors. Johnson gives a fairly good overview of what took place. Of course that overview doesn't put Durnford in a very good light. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Mr M. Cooper
![Mr M. Cooper](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/666-41.jpg)
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:37 pm | |
| John. I can see that you are doing your best to ridicule other opinions and lay the blame on Col Durnford, but don't you think that if LC had obeyed his own orders and properly protected the camp by Laagering, and if he had done some proper reconnaissance of the area, and not gone galavanting off on a wild goose chase, taking over half the column with him because Dartnell disobeyed his orders, then this whole affair might not have happened. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:41 pm | |
| John Some of the accounts you quote are retrospective - what did Barker/Scott do with what they witnessed? It only becomes important if someone knew about it. In 2015 we can garner these accounts with hindsight - the fact remains that Essex can state that they had no idea of enemy strength at 11 am, Durnford had no idea, the last report indicated 400 Zulus retiring, and as far as the camp was concerned the impi was in front of Chelmsford. Hillier by the way was NOT at Isandhlwana. He was out with Chelmsford's force. Please, I'm no oracle - I cannot prophesy the future. I'm concerned with the past. There, I've used it a third time.
Springy 1. "There is no question that Durnford was expecting orders to be waiting for him at Isandhlwana." I hold my hand up to be accountable for a remark made in 2012, all right. It might be surmised that Durnford having sent Shepstone to Isandhlwana on the 21st (with perhaps nothing concrete coming back, other than get a move on), then Hamer on the 22nd (with nothing coming back), was expecting there to be orders awaiting him at the camp when he got there. As Martin has said, in the light of no fresh orders, carry on... 2. The Frere Papers are in the British Library: Asian and African Collection. His correspondence from 1878-1880 is there. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:45 pm | |
| - Mr M. Cooper wrote:
- John. I can see that you are doing your best to ridicule other opinions and lay the blame on Col Durnford, but don't you think that if LC had obeyed his own orders and properly protected the camp by Laagering, and if he had done some proper reconnaissance of the area, and not gone galavanting off on a wild goose chase, taking over half the column with him because Dartnell disobeyed his orders, then this whole affair might not have happened.
Martin I am not ridiculing anyone. Yes LC should have done what you say, we all agree on that. But as CTSG posted many years ago, and changed my mind. Chelmsford wasn't at Isandlwana, Durnford was! And we all known Chelmsford didn't just walk away he was reprimand. So the COE did its job. You are possibly feeling how Durnford felt, prior to Isandlwana. You are down because you are left behind. Where's you Durnford courage. Come on say it " But we shall see" |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:20 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- John
Some of the accounts you quote are retrospective - what did Barker/Scott do with what they witnessed? It only becomes important if someone knew about it. In 2015 we can garner these accounts with hindsight - the fact remains that Essex can state that they had no idea of enemy strength at 11 am, Durnford had no idea, the last report indicated 400 Zulus retiring, and as far as the camp was concerned the impi was in front of Chelmsford. Hillier by the way was NOT at Isandhlwana. He was out with Chelmsford's force. Please, I'm no oracle - I cannot prophesy the future. I'm concerned with the past. There, I've used it a third time.
Springy 1. "There is no question that Durnford was expecting orders to be waiting for him at Isandhlwana." I hold my hand up to be accountable for a remark made in 2012, all right. It might be surmised that Durnford having sent Shepstone to Isandhlwana on the 21st (with perhaps nothing concrete coming back, other than get a move on), then Hamer on the 22nd (with nothing coming back), was expecting there to be orders awaiting him at the camp when he got there. As Martin has said, in the light of no fresh orders, carry on... 2. The Frere Papers are in the British Library: Asian and African Collection. His correspondence from 1878-1880 is there. Julian, as much as I enjoy your work, you do base a lot of it on hindsight. We can all do that, and come up with all kinds of sarnario's to make it fit in with what we want others to beleive. What I posted was from Lock and Quantrill. All sourced, no hindsight. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ADMIN
![ADMIN](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1-44.jpg)
Posts : 4358 Join date : 2008-11-01 Age : 65 Location : KENT
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:39 pm | |
| Sorted.. ![Salute](/users/1313/16/75/50/smiles/770175799.gif) John, calm your passions!!!! |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:40 pm | |
| I will try!! |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:48 pm | |
| John I'm glad you enjoy my work but I am careful always to base it on primary sources not hindsight. I also always bear in mind what Pulleine, Durnford or Chelmsford knew at a particular moment in order to explain their actions. It's important not to approach a problem with the solution already in mind and look for evidence to support it. Instead one should look at the evidence and then come up with a scenario that fits the available intelligence.
I'm well aware that you quoted from L&Q but that of course is not a source in itself. For example, you might like to compare the quotations from Barker in L&Q's book with Barker's actual account. Hillier, I repeat, was not at Isandhlwana. And I think it worth mentioning that Pope’s diary is often misquoted. Many of the AZW books do misquote it so the actual words, punctuation, ordering, and the way they were written are worth recording accurately. It enables a proper assessment:
22nd January, 1879 – 4 A.M. – A,C,D,E,F,H Companies of ours – 123* N.N.C. – mounted troops and four guns off. Great Firing. Relieved by 1-24th. Alarm. 3 Columns Zulus and mounted men on hill E. Turn Out. 7,000 (!!!) more E.N.E., 4,000 of whom went round Lion’s Kop. Durnford, Basutos, arrive and pursue. – Rocket Battery. Zulus retire everywhere. Men fall out for dinners.
* I cannot get this to appear here as it does in the diary but it's 1 and 2 written above, either side of a 3 written below. The line-by-line sequencing shows the time lapses between each entry and to what each entry might correspond (rather than reading parts of it as a continuum).
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Mr M. Cooper
![Mr M. Cooper](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/666-41.jpg)
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:56 pm | |
| - John wrote:
- Mr M. Cooper wrote:
- John. I can see that you are doing your best to ridicule other opinions and lay the blame on Col Durnford, but don't you think that if LC had obeyed his own orders and properly protected the camp by Laagering, and if he had done some proper reconnaissance of the area, and not gone galavanting off on a wild goose chase, taking over half the column with him because Dartnell disobeyed his orders, then this whole affair might not have happened.
Martin I am not ridiculing anyone. Yes LC should have done what you say, we all agree on that. But as CTSG posted many years ago, and changed my mind. Chelmsford wasn't at Isandlwana, Durnford was! And we all known Chelmsford didn't just walk away he was reprimand. So the COE did its job.
You are possibly feeling how Durnford felt, prior to Isandlwana.
You are down because you are left behind. Where's you Durnford courage. Come on say it " But we shall see"
John. Read it again, I didn't say you were ridiculing anyone, I said 'opinions'. And if you agree with what I said regarding LC, who then is to blame? It's all well and good saying that LC wasn't at iSandlwana, you could say that about Hitler not flying bombers and dropping bombs on Britain, however, it was down to him that it happened, if you see what I mean. I don't feel down at all, in fact I am quite happy (Mrs Shifter's not moved my book yet). |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:09 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- John
I'm glad you enjoy my work but I am careful always to base it on primary sources not hindsight. I also always bear in mind what Pulleine, Durnford or Chelmsford knew at a particular moment in order to explain their actions. It's important not to approach a problem with the solution already in mind and look for evidence to support it. Instead one should look at the evidence and then come up with a scenario that fits the available intelligence. I'm well aware that you quoted from L&Q but that of course is not a source in itself. For example, you might like to compare the quotations from Barker in L&Q's book with Barker's actual account. Hillier, I repeat, was not at Isandhlwana. And I think it worth mentioning that Pope’s diary is often misquoted. Many of the AZW books do misquote it so the actual words, punctuation, ordering, and the way they were written are worth recording accurately. It enables a proper assessment:
22nd January, 1879 – 4 A.M. – A,C,D,E,F,H Companies of ours – 123* N.N.C. – mounted troops and four guns off. Great Firing. Relieved by 1-24th. Alarm. 3 Columns Zulus and mounted men on hill E. Turn Out. 7,000 (!!!) more E.N.E., 4,000 of whom went round Lion’s Kop. Durnford, Basutos, arrive and pursue. – Rocket Battery. Zulus retire everywhere. Men fall out for dinners.
* I cannot get this to appear here as it does in the diary but it's 1 and 2 written above, either side of a 3 written below. The line-by-line sequencing shows the time lapses between each entry and to what each entry might correspond (rather than reading parts of it as a continuum). So we have 4000 Zulu's going round the Lion's Kop meaning Isandlwana ? or the North of the camp - Tahelane Spur? So if Pope and co knew this before Col Durnford arrived, surely it would have been obvious to the camp that it was going to be attacked from the rear or at best outflanked from the North West or West? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:12 pm | |
| - Mr M. Cooper wrote:
- John wrote:
- Mr M. Cooper wrote:
- John. I can see that you are doing your best to ridicule other opinions and lay the blame on Col Durnford, but don't you think that if LC had obeyed his own orders and properly protected the camp by Laagering, and if he had done some proper reconnaissance of the area, and not gone galavanting off on a wild goose chase, taking over half the column with him because Dartnell disobeyed his orders, then this whole affair might not have happened.
Martin I am not ridiculing anyone. Yes LC should have done what you say, we all agree on that. But as CTSG posted many years ago, and changed my mind. Chelmsford wasn't at Isandlwana, Durnford was! And we all known Chelmsford didn't just walk away he was reprimand. So the COE did its job.
You are possibly feeling how Durnford felt, prior to Isandlwana.
You are down because you are left behind. Where's you Durnford courage. Come on say it " But we shall see"
John.
Read it again, I didn't say you were ridiculing anyone, I said 'opinions'.
And if you agree with what I said regarding LC, who then is to blame?
It's all well and good saying that LC wasn't at iSandlwana, you could say that about Hitler not flying bombers and dropping bombs on Britain, however, it was down to him that it happened, if you see what I mean.
I don't feel down at all, in fact I am quite happy (Mrs Shifter's not moved my book yet). Then I could argue, Frere wasn't there, it was down to him. The Duke of Cambridge wasn't there it was down to him. Queen Victoria wasn't there it was down to her. Ect ect ect! |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:12 pm | |
| Hi Frank, Martin, Julian. not long in, nothing to add to today'a discussion..except to say i'm enjoying the the view's Julian. no offence meant by my remark, i have looked at it again, and it looks a bit starker on the page in isolation. not my intention. xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:17 pm | |
| Going off topic.. Tea time. Pork Chops with Crackling..Mmmmmm! Apple sauce! |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:21 pm | |
| Xhosa None taken. Not in the slightest. Yes, today has been a good crop of intelligent posts.
john Could Pulleine from his position see what Pope saw? Was Pope's estimate accurate? Did Pope tell anyone? Did Pope record the events in the order he saw them? Ultimately...Essex recorded that at 11 am no-one had any idea of the numbers of Zulus on the plateau...the last report of the Zulus had them retiring (one group in the direction of the general)...the last estimate of their strength was 400...at 11 am (I stress). That's what Durnford had to go on. That's the basis on which one has to assess his decision to ride out (and see for himself) bearing in mind the title of this thread. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:25 pm | |
| "Then i could argue Frere was'nt there, it was down to him". says john. Funny you should say that! ![agree](/users/1313/16/75/50/smiles/14391463.gif) xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Mr M. Cooper
![Mr M. Cooper](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/666-41.jpg)
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:27 pm | |
| John. Chelmsford was the Lt General in command of the invading army, he gave the orders to the others under him, hence the responsibilty for the actions are down to him. Enjoy your tea, sounds good, if you lived nearby I would bring my knife and fork. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Mr M. Cooper
![Mr M. Cooper](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/666-41.jpg)
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:30 pm | |
| Hi Les, Yes, I was thinking on the same lines about Frere. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:35 pm | |
| And beyond Frere...Hicks Beach? Dizzy? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Mr M. Cooper
![Mr M. Cooper](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/666-41.jpg)
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:37 pm | |
| Good point Julian. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:44 pm | |
| John
Look at the sequence of notes in Pope's Diary posted by Julian.
When the 4000 were sighted going around the N of Isandhlwana the camp "stood to" to await an attack.
Later they are reported to be in retreat everywhere, so the camp stood down and had dinner.
Nowhere does Pope give the impression the 1500 or so in the camp couldn't cope with that kind of number.
Nor does he express any surprise that Durnford left in pursuit.
I don't think they were at all concerned about their ability to defend themselves at this point. How wrong they were!
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:06 pm | |
| Henry Howard Molyneux Herbert, 4th Earl of Carnarvon, in cahoots with Frere..confederation. Hicks Beach was new, as 'Twitter's predecessor, he was too weak to control Frere..and i would tend to discount Disraeli who knew nothing..(or professed to ) when the doo hit the fan after Isandhlwana, which in my opinion was Thesigers fault alone..as commander in chief, South Africa the buck had to stop with him. bit simplistic that last statement, there is a simple explanation for that..it is that simple.. xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:07 pm | |
| Sorry that of course should read..successor. xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
![Chelmsfordthescapegoat](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/24-34.jpg)
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:30 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- And beyond Frere...Hicks Beach? Dizzy?
And then of course Hick's Beach's Mum & Dad. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
![Chelmsfordthescapegoat](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/24-34.jpg)
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:40 pm | |
| Selected Writings of the Late William Moorsom Laurence
"...I found rather an interesting relic in the shape of a diary kept by Lieut. Pope, who was in command of the company of the 2-24th that was destroyed. The following entry which I extract was evidently written very shortly before the final attack of the Zulus, and throws some valuable light on the proceedings of the day ; it is copied verbatim, but I have inserted in square brackets two or three words in explanation :
Isandlana [sic], 22, Wednesday. Relieved [from picket duty] 4.0 a.m. by [I Company] I-24th. A. C. D. E. F. H. [Companies 2-24th] l-3, [Ist Battalion, 3rd Regiment] N.N.C., [Natal Native Contingent], Mounted troops and 4 guns off--Heavy firing.
Alarm.--Three Columns Zulus and mounted men over hill E.-- Turn out--7,000 (!) more E.N.E., 4,000 of whom went round Lion's Kop--Durnford's Basutos arrive and pursue-- Rocket Battery [accompanies them]--Zulus retire every- where--Men fall out for dinner."
JW, is this how it should look. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:54 pm | |
| - xhosa2000 wrote:
- "Then i could argue Frere was'nt there, it was down to him". says john.
Funny you should say that! xhosa Come on Les, let's hear your take on Frere! Sounds like you know a lot about the chap! |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:07 pm | |
| Thank's for that john, i don't know about my knowing a lot about him, only what has been published. i have dug out Lady Victoria's book, i'm now pondering where the Martineau's are and the other chap Basil Worsfold..so if there is anything you wish to know in particular i'm sure i can tell you or even put the pages of the relevant info on here!. i hope that will be of help to you. xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:25 pm | |
| - Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
- Selected Writings of the Late William Moorsom Laurence
"...I found rather an interesting relic in the shape of a diary kept by Lieut. Pope, who was in command of the company of the 2-24th that was destroyed. The following entry which I extract was evidently written very shortly before the final attack of the Zulus, and throws some valuable light on the proceedings of the day ; it is copied verbatim, but I have inserted in square brackets two or three words in explanation :
Isandlana [sic], 22, Wednesday. Relieved [from picket duty] 4.0 a.m. by [I Company] I-24th. A. C. D. E. F. H. [Companies 2-24th] l-3, [Ist Battalion, 3rd Regiment] N.N.C., [Natal Native Contingent], Mounted troops and 4 guns off--Heavy firing.
Alarm.--Three Columns Zulus and mounted men over hill E.-- Turn out--7,000 (!) more E.N.E., 4,000 of whom went round Lion's Kop--Durnford's Basutos arrive and pursue-- Rocket Battery [accompanies them]--Zulus retire every- where--Men fall out for dinner." Must confess, the diary entries don't mean a great deal to me, would if I could understand it. But will have a go at a reply. There seems to be a lack of times. Apart from 04:00am, so alarm three must have been around 10:25ish, based on Essex saying it left the camp around 10:30am "At 0920 approx, some 40 mins before D's arrival, a body of Zulus estimated at 4000 (Pope's Diary and Chard's testimony refer) passed along the high ground (Tahelane Spur) in plain view of the camp, before disappearing to the NW (i.e. somewhere between Tahelane and the Manzimyama Valley). This was part of the 3 column enemy movement observed by Capt Barry on Mkwene Hill and reported to the camp immediately. Barry's report would have arrived with Pulleine about 9.45 a.m - barely 15 mins before D's arrival."Source: Some posts back. Highlighted. I will have to call in Springboks knowledge, I take it Pulleine would also have witnessed the Zulus passing along the ( Tahelane Spur) Second highlighted. Barry report was given to Pulleine. So Pulleine must have made Durnford aware of the numberous sightings. Do you really think. Durnford thought there were only 400 Zulus's |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:33 pm | |
| As i said john, anything you really need to know about Frere, you could find on line,,here's a small taste of his policy re, federation. xhosa [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:37 pm | |
| So as you can see.. the Zulu War was a forgone conclusion in the mind of Frere even before he knew what was really going on..on the ground..so to speak. xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:06 pm | |
| You should start a new topic. " What was Frere's real intentions" might confuse this topic somewhat. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Mr M. Cooper
![Mr M. Cooper](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/666-41.jpg)
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:28 pm | |
| John.
Reports had been coming in about zulu movement in the area since the early hours. Pulleine, who had been left in command of the camp, had not done anything about it. He had many empty wagons he could have made use of to make some sort of defences (laagers), just in case these zulus became hostile, and although he was more of an admin officer than a line officer, he had line officers there who could have offered their advice, but it appears they did not, and as a result Pulleine was lost at what he should have been doing long before the arrival of Durnford. It appears that Pulleine was sticking to the unofficial orders that had been given to him by a junior officer (Clery), under the illusion that they had been officiated by LC (or Glyn). However, that does not excuse him for not using his common sense, or even asking for the opinions of his line officers as to what they thought he should do about these zulu reports. It would appear, however, that because of Clery wrongly telling him that Durnford was on his way to reinforce the camp, he was waiting for Durnford's arrival so that he could dump this zulu problem on him, and maybe that is why Pulleine was dumbfounded when Durnford said that he would not be staying at the camp. After telling Durnford about the zulu sightings, Durnford sent out scouts, then sent out his own men on reconnaissance to see what these zulus were up to, and that is when the reports came in about the zulus retreating in all directions, and that a large body of them were moving in the direction of LC, so what was he supposed to do about that? Ask yourself this, could he really afford the risk of these zulus outflanking or attacking LC? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:30 pm | |
| Not possible i'm afraid..its a matter of historical record his intention to force confederation on the African, both white and black, he saw the Zulu as the only real stumbling block, to enable him to realize his plans.. the problem was, it was ill conceived. immoral, and poorly executed, Confederation effectively died on the slopes of Isandhlwana and with it went Frere's career.. a new topic, i don't think there would be any appetite for that!.good suggestion though, i would be up for it. xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:35 pm | |
| |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John
![John](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/21-9.jpg)
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:43 pm | |
| By the way Springbok.. If you click on the link above, you may just find what you have been looking for, Regarding you friend CTSG and Colenso and his use of her to back an argument. It's at the point where 24th and 90th asks for the title of a certain book, from which he quoted. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:55 pm | |
| John It looks like Frank had a laughing fit four years ago. You have to think of his health now, you wicked man! Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:04 pm | |
| Hiya John, if your asking me to ask admin, i don't get the point. i read the link, but that was all a bit basic in my opinion, the passage laid down by ctsg only provides more evidence of an official colluding in the cover up! trotting out the establishment line. iv'e moved on quite a way down the line to swallow any of that, it's apparent by most of the forum members responses that their knowledge of the bigger picture was less then..and now would, i believe give different answers..but as you pointed out quite rightly, this is straying too far from the original topic. xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:57 pm | |
| Durnford, was he capable? i think by carefully reading the back posts, i have come to the conclusion that we are more or less in agreement now! Durnford performed his duties well, given, how the day unfolded on the 22nd of Jan, and given what we now know to be true, and more importantly putting together all the known facts we seem to have agreed a broad consensus, loosely speaking..that is just my observation! i'm sure if i am mistaken in that belief then you will be sure to correct me!
But what then? will the Durnford debate end? and can the real one begin!. i doubt that very much, are any really ready to give up what has been a very juicy bone of contention.. and get on to the next level..xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:29 pm | |
| I have often thought that the title of this thread is odd. And wondered whether, whoever began it, actually meant "Durnford was he culpable" (was it his fault the defeat occurred). That is what much of the history of the debate has been about. "Capable" is a much more difficult thing to decide about. Very few of us are totally capable/incapable of anything, we are somewhere in between. So was Durnford.
But as I tried to clarify the other day, the ground for debate seems to have moved from "Did he disobey a direct order" (which no-one now seems to be saying), to "Was his judgement reasonable on the morning of the 22nd". Which is more to do with how capable he was, and is a matter of degree.
In that sense, I agree Les that we are probably now as close to agreement as we are likely to get, pending the discovery of further primary evidence.
But will it end, I somehow doubt it!.
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:09 am | |
| |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:24 am | |
| Morning Les No it wont, for the simple reason that this particular string has been a vehicle for discussion to really range far and wide. Weve touched/explored/fought over, virtually every single aspect of isandlwana through it. Long may it happen.
Cheers Mate |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Guest Guest
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:38 am | |
| Yes Morning Frank, like i said a juicy contentious bone, most are now doomed to repeat themselves, but the was Durnford Capable element, has surely been answered to all's satisfaction, people can continue to pick over the dead carcass of the rest. xhosa
|
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Dave
![Dave](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1-55.gif)
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:38 am | |
| - rusteze wrote:
- I have often thought that the title of this thread is odd. And wondered whether, whoever began it, actually meant "Durnford was he culpable" (was it his fault the defeat occurred). That is what much of the history of the debate has been about. "Capable" is a much more difficult thing to decide about. Very few of us are totally capable/incapable of anything, we are somewhere in between. So was Durnford.
But as I tried to clarify the other day, the ground for debate seems to have moved from "Did he disobey a direct order" (which no-one now seems to be saying), to "Was his judgement reasonable on the morning of the 22nd". Which is more to do with how capable he was, and is a matter of degree.
In that sense, I agree Les that we are probably now as close to agreement as we are likely to get, pending the discovery of further primary evidence.
But will it end, I somehow doubt it!.
Steve There are some who think he did disobey a direct order. He was ordered to "move to the camp" He obeyed up to that point. He Disobayed when he tryed to leave the camp. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Dave
![Dave](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1-55.gif)
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:43 am | |
| I wonder if Crealock, tryed to jump on the bandwagon, of those survivors who stated Col Durnford assumed command on his arrival. Thus saying he wrote in Durnfords orders "take command of it" Which of course we know he didn't. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Dave
![Dave](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1-55.gif)
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:00 am | |
| Question, what do you think wold have happened, if on receiving the message " The Zulus are retiring ect" he didnt do nothing, apart from stayed in the camp. Just stayed there and kept his powder dry, so to say. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 7 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:05 am | |
| Dave without doubt. A niggle that's always been at the back of my mind is actually the culpability of Clery. His 'presumption in issuing the orders to Pulleine could be interpreted as a major factor in the defeat. What I mean by that is IF that order, to draw in and defend the camp, had not been issued there is of course the possibility that a) the impi would have been seen at a more advantageous time and b) he possibly would have had a better defence strategy. So was Clery, in his innocence of course, guilty to a degree.
Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | | Durnford was he capable.5 | |
|
Similar topics | ![+](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |