Wagons at Isandlwana

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:19 am

Harford:
".....the stench which was mostly from the smashed up contents of the Royal Army Medical Corps wagon containing all manner of chemicals, within a few yards of us was truly aweful."
And again: " Isandlwana hill and the nek on which we had slept on the night of the disaster was always in sight, together with the hospital wagons which showed up clearly against the skyline........
Interesting thing about the second quote is the plural. So more than one ambulance wagon.
Good confirmation that there were ambulance wagons close to the top of the nek/saddle slope.

Seems to fit rather well.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:36 am

Frank,

Are you quoting from a subsequent Harford article? Is it one of the 1929 pieces?

Only the Royal Army Medical Corps did not exist until 1898, hence the reason for my query.

John Y.

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:46 am

Hi John
Quotes are from Harford his writings, Photographs and Sketches. D and E Payne. The mention of the RAMC is very specific, possibly notes made after the war?

Cheers

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

See his journal (Child).
I am not at home

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:23 am

Frank,

Just seen the same text in both Daphne Child's (page 33) and Paynes' work (page 130).

This puts his journal post-1898, and seems to confirm Child's assumption that journal was not a contemporary work, but a subsequent one possibly based on his contemporary notes.

John Y.

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:40 am

John
What it does do John is confirm the presence of at least one ambulance on the saddle and also that was either on the brow of the saddle slope or the reverse slope, close to the brow.
Julian
Comparing the wheel size, rear that is, the ox wagons seem to be much larger diameter. So in answer to your earlier question, there is a good chance it is an ambulance.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:42 am

Didn't Black also record coming across the ambulance waggon on the saddle?

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

In Norris-Newman's books (burial party)?
Cheers

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:52 am

ymob
Yes, that's right, thanks, and that was on the saddle, wasn't it?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Small point, but are we sure that Harford's "RAMC" medical wagon, containing all sorts of chemicals, was in fact an ambulance wagon or just supplies?

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Mr Whybra,
Sorry, I haven't the book at hand (i am not at home).
It seems to me that the book of NN is in the collection of the website "archive.org" .
Cheers

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi All,

I think the correct description is "spring ambulance wagon", see" Helpmekaar hospital parient" thread on this forum.
Wheels were all the same size and traction would have been two mules normally, sometime four ( for more speed)

regards

barry

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:26 am

I hope this helps:

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An ambulance?
John Young Collection.

John Y.

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:33 am

Frederic
Just read through NN, cant find the reference you refered to, I have no doubt you will later today. Salute

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank,
From memory, Mr Jackson in "Hill of the Sphinx", in the annexe "Burial party" just before the annexe "Musketry" (at the end of the book) wrote that you can find the testimony from BLACK in "With the British Army..." by NN.
Cheers
Frédéric

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Here are a couple of ambulance wagons from the Graphic.
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Steve

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:54 pm

John
An ambulance that's been ransacked and destroyed by a rampaging Zulu army high on Tchala.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:05 pm

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Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:16 am

Photoshop?

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:20 am

Nope! Not even close?

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:21 am

Artist's impression?

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:28 am

I'm using a app! Called image blender, just getting the hang of using it.

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:38 am

Julian Whybra wrote:: Photoshop?

Julian I did try photoshop far to complicated.

There are some very good apps out there to edit photos, I had a really good one, but the up-dates stopped and is just ads now, so deleted it,
I also use Snapseed possibly the best for editing.

Subject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:57 am

Littlehand your English , please speak it ! , this sounds like a different language Joker

.
90th

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:49 pm

Sorry mate forgot you was a pen & paper man. Very Happy

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:15 pm

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It was worth ago!

Subject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:08 am

Littlehand I still struggle with Pen & Paper to be honest ! Rolling Eyes

90th

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour,

About the ambulance wagon at Isandhlwana:

"To Major-General Marshall belongs the credit of performing the long-neglected duty of revisiting the fatal battlefield of Isandhlwana (...).
A short description of the spot [Isandhlwana] taken from that written by Mr. Archibald Forbes, may be of insterest:
"(...) On the edge of a gully was a gun-limber jammed, its horse hanging in their harness down the steep face of the ravine; a little farther on a broken ambulance-wagon, with its team of mules dead in their harness, and around were the bodies of the poor fellows who had been dragged from the intercepted vehicle. Following the trail of bodies through long grass and scattered stores, the crest was reached (...).

"Daily News", 20th June, 1879 / Quoted in "History of the Zulu War and its origin" (1880), pp.403-4-5).

So the testimony of Harford about this point was reliable.

Cheers.

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:51 am

Thanks Frederic - I really hadn't had time to look for this.

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:39 am

How many ambulances crossed the Buffalo? Ive seen the figure somewhere but struggling to find it. 6 seems to stick in my mind for no parent reason with 2 being taken out by Chelmsford, leaving 4 at iSandlwana

Subject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:55 am

Hi Frank
I was looking through ' Medical History Of The War In Zululand 1879 ' compiled by Surgeon General Woolfryes he states 6 Ambulances ' Captured ' at Isandlwana . In an earlier report Woolfryes mentions the Ambulances and the problems of getting enough of them , they had 28 in total , after all sorts of ' wagons ' were collected , and converted to Ambulances , he then states they thought they'd need double that number , and he then says '' it was a great relief when 30 English Regulation Ambulances arrived , and just in time to relieve a pressure that was occurring at Ft Pearson '', unfortunately no date is given !

.
90th

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:25 am

Thanks 90th, there is a list somewhere, just cant find the thing. My notes say 6 crossed the buffalo, two were taken by Chelmsford that should have left 4 at iSandlwana. The reason for the question is trying to separate Harford from Forbes.

Cheers

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour
About the attempted escape of the ambulance during the battle: see the testimony from Harry Davies (Edendale tropps) quoted for example in Zulu Rising.
Cheers
Frédéric

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:41 pm

I know that Davies mentions a wagon pulled by mules that were stabbed along with the occupants, I don't recall mention of an ambulance though? Ive just had a look at IK, he mentions that the 'sight of the ambulance wagon occupants being killed unnerved/upset Davies. But it isn't Davies who refers to an ambulance.

Cheers

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

From Zulu Rising:
"As he watched, Davies saw a covered wagon drawn by twelve mules start off down the road towards Rorke's Drift. It was one of Surgeaon Sheperd's ambulance wagons, marked by a large red cross painted on the canvas, a desperate attempt to evacuate some of the wounded before it was too late. But the road was closed - and there was no way out of the camp now to wheeled traffic; "They had got about 100 yard [92 metres] from the hill when all the mules were stabbed and the occupants of the wagon. I saw the Zulus jumping into the wagon..." ).
There was no way through, either, for the guns...

Cheers

Frédéric

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank,
If it was not the ambulance-wagon, what wagon?
Cheers

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:16 pm

Frederic
There were quite a few wagons attempting to escape, could have been anyone really. As far as the 'occupants' I should imagine that when the fleeing men saw transport the leapt on board. Im trying to locate where IK got the info he attributes to Davies. Knowing him it will be somewhere.

Cheers

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

I don't recall wagons attempting to escape (except the two gun's carriadges and the wagon-ambulance) and
the wagon described by Davies was coupled with mules not oxen...
Cheers

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

IK repeats the fact that Davies witnessed an ambulance wagon being over run in the chapter 'Did you hear that'
'At Isandlwana, the sight of the ambulance wagon being overrun and the men inside dragged out and stabbed had caused Harry Davies of the Edendale troop to pause for a moment on the nek.'

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:15 pm

Frederic
The Colonial wagon was drawn by 8 to 10 mules. Penrose RE.
Waterloo
Davies doesn't mention an ambulance in his statement.
The ambulance description is provided by Forbes" A little further on was a broken and battered ambulance waggon, with its team of mules mouldering in their harness, and around lay the corpses of soldiers. poor helpless wretches, dragged out of an intercepted vehicle, and done to death without a chance of life."
Without doubt the ambulance was below the line of the neck and its highly possible it was the one witnessed by Davies, its suprising that Davies didn't see fit to record that while taking the time to count the number of mules pulling it? Potentially then there were other wagons trying to escape by road, in Lloyds painting from the top of the Oskaberg he shows wagons in a donga to the side of the road below the waggon park.
Just rambling thoughts.

Cheers

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

Frank Thank you,
I think its just the way in which IK tells the story that gives the impression that he was citing Davies direct. I have re-read that chapter and IK does not say anywhere that Davies described the ambulance.

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:41 pm

Davies's Report does not mention an ambulance, merely a waggon attempting to escape with wounded loaded aboard.
It might have been an ambulance, it might not. It might have been a waggon being used as an ad-hoc ambulance, it might not.
Certainly one ambulance tried it because Forbes described it and drew it and it may be in the famous photo as well. Probably more than one ambulance and/or waggon tried it. Nevertheless...
it would be wrong to marry up the Forbes and Davies accounts as describing the same incident as there is no proof.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

IK is either being a little cheeky or he has a reference we do not know about (quite likely). In ZR he conflates Davies account of the escaping wagon (in which he does not say it was an ambulance wagon) with Forbes report 4 months later in which he describes the shattered and broken ambulance wagon surrounded by bodies. IK's only reference in ZR is to Davies report and while he does not ascribe the word "ambulance" to Davies he does clearly say that is what he saw. It cannot be shown conclusively that the wagon seen by Davies is one and the same as that described by Forbes based on the footnotes in ZR.

PS Julian. SNAP PPS It doesn't even say there were wounded aboard just that the occupants were stabbed.
Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Do we know testimonies about "others wagons triyng to escape by road" , except the ambulance -wagon , the gun's cariadges and the reference to the Llyod's painting)?

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:46 pm

rusteze
I imply no intentional criticism of IK. Sometimes in one's mind it is easy to conflate accounts, to connect what apparently are one and the same thing, especially when they are minor events in a much larger work. A case of not seeing the trees for the wood! IK did something similar with Adendorff and 'the brave fugitive'. It's just a slip of the pen and a mistaken conflation becomes fact!

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Julian

I agree, a small drop in a large ocean. We are obsessed with the minutiae!

Steve

Posts : 72 Join date : 2016-01-20

rusteze wrote:: Julian

I agree, a small drop in a large ocean. We are obsessed with the minutiae!

Steve

I was just thinking the same thing myself Very Happy

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:18 pm

In the big silver book, page 88 IK is pretty categorical connecting Davies and the ambulance.
Frederic.
Davies either saw the ambulance or another waggon, ergo the possibility is there that at least one other waggon tried to escape.
Sorry the thread has got a tad distracted with this. Forbes saw an ambulance on the road on the way up to the neck, the photo we have been examining has a possible ambulance and medical supply wagon. that would place Harford on or close to that point of square for the night of the 22nd. He mentions twice the body of Shepherd, its position and wounds. Isnt it then highly likely that is where he died?
Steve/ eaton the minutae becomes very important in connecting some very small and far apart dots.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:31 pm

Frank
IK is indeed categorical BUT his footnote for the incident ONLY gives 'Davies, Report' as the source. And that does not mention an ambulance. If IK had a second source he would have mentioned it as he does elsewhere where he combines sources.
I've been through all the other Davies accounts and there's no mention of an ambulance anywhere. IK would not have found an as yet unknown source, used its content, and then not mentioned it in footnotes. He's too professional.
I agree with your stressing the importance of connecting the minutiae - and therein les the problem - there is no known certain connection between the two descriptions.

Subject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:36 pm

Julian
Ive done the same exercise hence my arguments above.
Do you have access to the number of ambulances that crossed the buffalo?
Frederic
Smith Dorrien"..........when this final charge took place the traffic which was in spanned had mostly cleared the neck."

Cheers

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