Wagons at Isandlwana

Julian Whybra wrote:

Frank
Theoretically, yes re the boy.
Interesting, your total of 220 waggons, my best estimate is 106...do you feel another topic coming on???


.

Bonsoir Mr Whybra,
From "Lord Chelmsford and the Zulu War" (French / p.311)
Column n°3: 220 wagons;
82 carts.

Cheers

Frank,
I have read testimonies about the wagons "ins panned"...
Cheers

Like everyone else I have a great deal of respect for Ian Knight , so I am quite surprised to find that he has let a fact slip through the net without offering any verification of its source. IK has skilfully written the Davies account of the attack on the ambulance but it is written in a way that makes it appear to be fact. I was thinking that the Davies account was quite an insignificant event and that perhaps it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things but it does matter, I would have appreciated it if IK had stated that 'in all probability Davies witnessed the attack on the ambulance that was later described by Forbes'. Picky I know but if a historian makes an assumption they should at least highlight the fact, facts are those important things which seperate historians from authors. Again, I have a great deal of respect for IK and enjoy his work immensely.

Frank Allewell wrote:

Frederic
The Colonial wagon was drawn by 8 to 10 mules. Penrose RE.
Cheers

According to Chadwick (Military History Journal, vol. 4 n°4, The Zulu war of 1879, Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift)

N°3 column; 1.507 oxen, 67 mules
So, only 6 to 8 wagons coupled with mules.

Cheers

Frederic,

There is some speculation that N/5 may have had mules rather than horses. Ian Bennett and I discussed this sometime again with Dr. Tony Pollard when he presented a précis of his archeological findings at the National Army Museum, when he attempted to explain the presence of a mule shoe that had been located.

John Y.

Bonsoir Mr Young,

According to the same author, 49 horses excluding those of the cavalry.

Ian Knight is not my favorite author, but if Chadwick is right, IK is also certainly right.
Cheers

Frederic,

The officers' mounts and remounts could easily account for such as that. Each officer would normally have had two mounts.

Just for your information.

John Y.

This from...

Medical Services and Military Medicine during the
Anglo-Zulu war of 1879. Part 1.
By Dr Andres Traverse....

‘the question of ambulances caused some anxiety’. In procuring suitable ambulance wagons, the
available ordinary ox wagons used in the 1877-78 campaign were deemed inefficient for the purposes
intended, as the design and spring system were too inappropriate for adaptation in Natal and Zululand.
Again, improvisation necessitated the use of a few converted civilian transports and five store wagons from
the Ordnance Department. Only one wagon per column was allocated to transport all the medical stores,
hospital supplies and associated baggage.....

Not only had the hospital cot bearers deserted at the same time as the Natal Native Contingent on 22
January, almost the entire supply of medicines, surgical equipment and six ambulance wagons belonging
to Colonel Glyn’s column, had been lost. The medical officers were left with few supplies which included
the pair of field panniers at Helpmakaar together with limited quantities that Surgeon Reynolds may have
saved at Rorke’s Drift. The need for replenishment of medical supplies was technically alleviated, by the
immediate despatch of substantial, though bulky stocks from Pietermaritzburg, which in fact, took almost
six weeks to arrive, due to the slow pace of the ox wagons. Also, upon receipt of the news of the disaster at
Isandlwana, a field hospital of 75 beds was immediately dispatched from Pietermaritzberg for use at
Rorke’s Drift and Helpmakaar. This also took time to reach its destination, as the hospital accompanied
the medical supplies convoy. Desperate for quinine and pulvis ipecac, the depleted column was supplied
by any means, which included postal services and native runners from Pietermaritzburg. In the meantime,
a small quantity of medicine was obtained by purchase, from the mission station at Umsinga. Glyn’s misery
was aggravated by the loss of Surgeon-Major Shepherd, Acting Surgeon Bouee and 11 men of the AHC
including Lieutenant of Orderlies, A. Hall, all at Isandlwana. The desertion of the Natal Native Contingent
(NNC) in the face of the enemy included the hospital cot bearers, whose loss was difficult to make up.

Mr Young,
You are too subtil for me...
Do you mean that Chadwick is wrong about the number of mules (67)?
If the gun's cartridges (6) and the wagon-ambulances (at least 7) were coupled with mules, how many mules were necessaries?
4 mules for one gun's cartridge?
2 mules for one ambulance?
We also know that mules were used for transportation to the firing line ammunition boxes and Frank wrote that colonial wagons were coupled with mules (source Penrose).
I have some doubt with this last suggestion ;problem of food for these animals ( they can't eat the grass) and not enough mules (67)....if Chadwick is right of course.

The ammunition wagon "ready to start" to the Mangeni (Bloomfield) exceptionnally coupled with mules does not count.

Cheers

Quoted in "Twilight of a warrior nation" by Ian Knight.
Central column: 220 wagons, 82 carts, 1 507 oxen, 49 horses, 67 mules (as Chadwick)
The source seems to be French (Lord Chelmsford and the zulu war") for the 2 authors...

Cheers

Frédéric

...and mules to transport food too Dartnell! (night 21-22 january / Lt Walsh / IMI)

At the risk of being pedantic!
Surgeon General Woolfryes reported that 6 Ambulance were 'captured' at iSandlwana. There were two with Chelmsfords unit that would place a total of 8 for the column. That seems excessive for one field hospital as the staffing required per ambulance was 3. Therefore if 6 ambulance were properly staffed and at iSandlwana during the battle one would assume that there were 18 Army Hospital Corps killed. Actual AHC presence was Lt Hall and ten men.
Potentially two ambulance have been accounted for, one ( possibly) in the Lloyd photo, one mentioned by Forbes. So 4 additional destroyed.
If the ambulances and the 'stores' wagon were to be of use I would imagine that they would be quartered close to the field hospital. That being given 'IF' the wagon on two of the photos was indeed an ambulance and the adjacent wagon the supply wagon does it not therefore raise the possibility that the field hospital tent was in that same area ie: above the 1/24th camp and not the 2/24th camp as shown by David Jackson.
This has an impact in that the wagon drawn by 12 mules witnessed by Davies would have had a fairly easy run away from the camp if stationed above the 1/24th camp but if above the 2/24th it would have had to negotiate passed the pioneers tent area and the wagon park with its in spanned wagons all trying to make their own getaway.
Just some thoughts to ponder.

Cheers

Frederic
Couple of figures to juggle with
Number of drivers and leaders for the mules employed during the war: 775
Number of Mules employed during the war 4633.

Cheers Mate

Frederic
Remember that the figure of 220 waggons relates to the whole of Column no. 3. Some would have been convoying supplies up and down the communications line. I've been looking at the reports of the number of waggons lost at Isandhlwana and they vary from 100 to 106 to 120 (and I presume they include the 24th's coy waggons, the AHC ambulances, etc.), not to mention Erskine's 6 wagons from Column No. 2.

Frank, Mr Whybra, all.
Understood.
The number of mules given by IK and Chadwick seems inaccurate
Cheers
Frédéric

Frederic
I would never accuse the late George Chadwick or Ian of inaccuracy, but research does move on with avenues opening up all the time.

Cheers

Frank,
You are right, I misspoke. It is their "source" that seems wrong.
Cheers.
Frédéric

Hi Frederic / Frank & others
Frederic yesterday quoted figures regarding the Central Column from IK'S ' Twilight Of A Warrior Nation ' Re the wagon & Mule numbers , I can tell you these same numbers ( exactly ) are stated in ' The Narrative Of Field Ops ' compiled by the Intelligence Dept of the Army .
90th

Not quite sure I understand the relevance of the mule situation , but once you add the total numbers you have 713 taken from ' The Narrative Of Field Ops ' ... this being the total number over the 5 Columns , and the Transport quota ? . Although , when reading their  ' Grand Total ' the Mule number is stated as 398 !!!! .
90th

Morning Gary
I think Frederic was attempting to show by the numbers of mules that there was a discrepancy with the number of wagons. ie: a maximum of 6 to 8 vehicles using mules therefore if there were 6 to 8 ambulance at iSandlwana there weren't any available for drawing the Cape Carts etc. At least I think so. It revolves around the reported wagon sighting by Davies.

Ready for the World Cup?

Cheers

Hi Frank
Sort of , I'm not big on that format to be honest , if its on I'll watch it , but otherwise may not get to involved , I see NZ rolled India ? .
90th

Pretty much agree, kiddy cricket. I don't expect to much of SA in any case. India is pretty much the favourite so the NZ win was a big one.

Hi Frank
It was an upset win , we play the Kiwis in our opening match on fri , betting will certainly change if they beat us ! .
90th

Im betting on nobody, England were supposed to be a form side but SA rolled them over in no uncertain terms but then Aussie nailed us to the wall. Its going to be a bit of a lottery I reckon.
Cheers

Wonder how long its going to take Pete to spot these posts? Wanna bet?

Me bet ......Never ! , Aussies dont bet !!!! , LOL . In regard to Pete .. It'll be sooner than later
90th

Frederic
Don't forget to count in the Mules of Durnfords column, he had 350 mules in total but not all at iSandlwana.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I would assume the final table included both phases of the war.

Frank Allewell wrote:

Morning Gary
I think Frederic was attempting to show by the numbers of mules that there was a discrepancy with the number of wagons. ie:  a maximum of 6 to 8 vehicles using mules therefore if there were 6 to 8 ambulance at iSandlwana there weren't any available for drawing the Cape Carts etc. At least I think so. It revolves around the reported wagon sighting by Davies.

Cheers

Bonjour,
Exactly.
Cheers
Frēdéric

Morning Frederic
The problem with trying to do any totals is we don't know how many mules Durnford had with him, or if Mcphail had mule wagons with his convoy.

cheers

Bonjour Frederic
The number of Mules stated by Chadwick & IK is 67 , this is also the same number as quoted in ' The Narrative Of The Field Ops ' compiled by the defence department , cant see where IK or Chadwick are incorrect , they used the figures as supplied by the intelligence department . The Mule numbers don't make much sense to me , this from ' The Narrative ' ... No 1 Column 121 Mules , No2 Column 350 Mules , No 3 Column 67 Mules , No 4 Column 123 Mules , No 5 Column 12 Mules , Transport 40 Mules , in my Maths that makes it 713 Mules , then in their Grand Total they state the number as 398 Mules , don't quite get it I'm afraid ! . Am I missing something ? .
90th

90th
It doesn't make any sense at all, particularly the 350 for Durnfords column compared with the rest. Even the oft repeated figure of 67 for the 3rd column doesn't make any sense. That doesn't come close to the figure needed for the ambulances alone never mind the 82 carts etc.
Again, as with others, a figure has been repeated and accepted as fact when the basis of it is incorrect.
Cheers

But No 3 Column have a large number of oxen 1, 507 , they also have by a long way a much larger number of Carts 82 , of the Columns , No 1 had the second highest number of Carts 24 . I'm assuming its only 2 animals per cart ? , I'm afraid If the intelligence department struggled with the numbers , what chance do any of us have today . The livestock numbers for the transport of No3 Column do not make much sense , agree with what you are saying , seems that is the case , the figures don't add up . Possibly it may depend on the type of wagons there were as well , some of the large Cape variety down to the smaller local Variety , obviously you cant have 16 oxen pulling every wagon as that wouldn't be required , just another riddle that will never be solved , because we just don't have the specifications of the wagons comprising No 3 Column , it's pointless to guess how many , and what type of animal pulled which Wagon etc , we'd need to know the make up and specifications , of each and every individual wagon Phewwwww !
90th

The Colonial wagon would have between 8 and 10 mules per wagon. The ambulance 10 to 12, the GSW 8 to 10. The Cape Carts Ive seen a reference but cant put my hands on it as 2 to 4.
The Durford column is a real mind bender, to pull 30 wagons he had 480 oxen and 350 mules? Even allowing a dozen or so for the Rocket Party that's still a lot of pulling power available?
so yes another one of the mysteries to file in the bottom draw.

Cheers

Unfortunately that bottom drawer is most likely to overflow , they really belong in a TTHB ( The To Hard Basket )
90TH

Frank Allewell wrote:

The Colonial wagon would have between 8 and 10 mules per wagon. The ambulance 10 to 12, the GSW 8 to 10. The Cape Carts Ive seen a reference but cant put my hands on it as 2 to 4.
The Durford column is a real mind bender, to pull 30 wagons he had 480 oxen and 350 mules? Even allowing a dozen or so for the Rocket Party that's still a lot of pulling power available?
so yes another one of the mysteries to file in the bottom draw.

Cheers

Just out of interest were any of the mules used as pack mules, I read that they can carry between 1601bs to 2001bs or at least 20% of their own body weight. I was thinking that perhaps not every mule would have been used to pull wagons.

Hi Waterloo
They were used in that way by the rocket battery with paniers for the rockets. Possibly for other uses as well, but not recorded.

Cheers

From memory: Recorded for Lt Walsh, IMI (as I wrote in a previous post) during the night of the 21/22 january and for Sheptstone, Natal Carbineers, (one mule?) the 22 january.
Cheers

There has been several witness statements saying there were mules loaded with Ammunitions boxes etc , being seen running wildly around the plain at Isandlwana , and I think Barry has mentioned previously a couple or so were seen heading down the RD road laden with Ammunition boxes from memory .
90th

Just out of interest.

"The question of ambulances caused some anxiety. In the Cape Colony campaign the ordinary ox wagons were used, fitted with a framework called a cartel, having springs, and slung inside the body of the wagon. A number of these cartels had been forwarded to Natal, but it was found that the wagons of this colony were of a different pattern, and were not sufficiently wide to receive them. As ambulances* were required without delay, travelling wagons with springs, such as are used by the better class of colonists, were brought up and converted into ambulances, but only a few of them could be obtained. Therefore, five store wagons with springs were procured from the Ordnance Department, and these were adapted to the purpose. As the war assumed greater proportions, however, more ambulances were required, and it was
only after some difficulty that a tradesman could be found who engaged to complete and hand over one every fortnight. He constructed 12, which proved to be most serviceable. They were ordinary wagons of the country, each having on its floor a platform resting on six stout carriage springs, three on either side, leaving a space of some 18 inches between the floor and the platform. On the platform behind were arranged three hospital stretchers abreast for lying-down patients, and in front a double row of seats, back to back, for fourteen patients sitting up. A double tent covered the whole length of the wagon, and there was ample circulation of air through the open sides, while canvas curtains excluded the rain. The men's kits and rifles, with tents for use on the road, and cooking utensils, were carried in the space between the two floors. The length of the vehicle made its motion easier over the rough roads, and the jolting was counteracted by the springs most satisfactorily." (A.M.D. Reports 1879"

Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Were not the carriers elements of the NNC?.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Xhosa do you mean the stretcher bearers ? , if you do , from memory they were the Band Members and others , and quite possibly some of the NNC ?
90th

Yes 90th your quite right, i'm trying to
recall where i had read that elements
of the NNC were specifically told off as
' carrier's ' who deserted with the
reserve NNC. i will have to look that up.
xhosa

Ive just checked through survivor statements, the only indication I can locate of NNC being told of to carry ammunition is of Lonsdales men requiring supplies and getting them.
Still looking though

Hi Frank
Xhosa is referring to the NNC acting as stretcher bearers not as Ammunition Runners .


Xhosa
Found this in ' Medical History Of The War In Zululand 1879 '
Ashanti Cots ; Considering the rough and rugged nature of the country for the most part over which the troos were operating , it was advisable to have a supply of Ashanti Cots in which to carry the seriously sick and wounded ; 8 Cots were therefore attached to each column in addition to stretchers , For the purpose of carrying the Ashanti Cots , and for removing the wounded from the scene of action to the front dressing station , a corps of Native Bearers was established numbering 160 , making one company and a half with 16 men as reserve for casualties ; a company consisting of 96 Natives with 16 of the AHC , and half a company being attached to each column . It was only after the Battle of Ulundi , which virtually terminated the Zulu war , that a Bearer company of the AHC arrived in Natal .
90th

"Band 1st/24th acted as stretcher bearers at Isandlwana. See page 206 of HCMDB. They were assigned to companies, operated forward on the firing line, but about 10 minutes after the fight had stabilised were ordered back to the hospital tents by Peter Shepherd. Source is Pte Edmund Wilson the Isandlwana survivor and bandsman"

Chard I mentioned Band Members were also stretcher bearers in a post earlier today !
90th

And my post shows you to be correct. Call it a witness statement.