Overheated martini henry

first let me apologize for my off topic remark in the AMMUNITION CARRIERS THREAD.
second, where would I find references of rounds cooking off in a martini henry?
thanks for taking the time to review my post.

There are a few discussion on this forum about overheating, jamming and rounds being cooked off but most of those discussions crop up as an almost off topic subject that inevitably rears its head when ever there is a discussion about Isandlwana, not trying to put you off or anything but the subject has been discussed a great deal.
I was reading an old RDVC.com thread where Neil Aspinshaw commented on over heating barrels, he said 'Another issue, barrel heat, 30 rounds over an hour, (a typical rate of fire) that I shot the barrel was not "untouchable", hot yes, but it does cool between rounds of reasonable spacing.' Julian Whybra wanted to know what 'the firing of a 130-year old gun in 2005 can inform us realistically about its performance in 1879.' It is quite a useful discussion to read and there are quite a few comments made by several experts on the functioning of the MH in 1879. some of the myths are discussed.
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/discussion.php?topid=13015&forid=1

I hope that helps,

Kind Regards
waterloo

Cant wait for Neil's book to be out and about , this will , I assume , answer all these questions pertaining to the performances of the M-H in Trials , and Combat situations .
90th

90th wrote:

Cant wait for Neil's book to be out and about , this will , I assume , answer all these questions pertaining to the performances of the M-H in Trials , and Combat situations .
90th

I remember Neil wrote in a post that he had devoted a section of his book on the subject of overheating and jamming. I don't have any books devoted solely to the MH so his book is a must for me. Like you, I can't wait.

thank you gentlemen for the replies.

no one else want's to chime in on this?

I have Malcolm Cobb's book "The Martini-Henry Notebook" which is quite illuminating on the use of these rifles. He deals with a lot of issues relating to loading ammo, shooting and the variations in models.
On pages 121-128 he looks at remarks by defenders at RD and issues relating to jamming, case extraction and fouling of the barrels. He mentions a quote by a Harry Lugg who stated his barrel became "almost red hot and scorched his hands." Cobb says later for a barrel to be red hot it would need to get to 500 deg.C which he says is most unlikely. He mentions it is recorded that a Soper rifle, capable of firing 60 shots per minute had its sight fall off due to the solder melting. No comments are made about rounds exploding in the breech.
I was once at a shoot when a 7mm Bolt action rifle had 60 or more shots fired by 3 differents shooters in about 45 minutes and the sling eye fell off due to the same overheating issue, although the velocity of the bullets would have exceeded that of the 577/450.
I recommend Cobb's book to anyone interested in, as he calls them "A Grand Old Rifle"
Nitro450:Salute:

thanks NITRO450, I've looked through that book, some others, and all around on the web and could not find any reliable sources only bull dropping's stories of rounds cooking off.
I can't believe you could fire a single shot black powder rifle long enough to heat it up that hot without it fouling up so bad that you would not be able to load it.

Hi Free,
Yes, having shot with muzzle loading rifles many times I know it doesn't take long for the fouling to build up enough to make loading impossible without cleaning the bore. I'm about to find out about it again soon, as i will be trying out a couple including an 8 bore rifle which should test me well and truly !!!

Nitro450,

Not that it matters too much but Lugg was not using a Martini-Henry. He was using a Swinburn-Henry carbine which is on display at The Warriors' Gate at the Old Fort in Durban.

JY

Hi All,
I think that Lugg statement was a general one, but it would have applied to his NMP issue  rifle as well.
If there was not a real problem with the MH overheating the MOD would not have  introduced, post Isandlwana, the leather handguard mod for this weapon. It served to protect the firers hands from very hot metal around the breach.
Any firing tests done in modern times would not replicate the actual firing conditions found in 1879 as the BP (black powder) propellant formulations changed over the years. In short, greater refining for the ingredients was in place thus resulting in much more efficient combustion in the chamber of the weapon. There was also some adjustment to the relevant proportions of the ingredients in the recipe.  Also, firing 1879 expired ammunition in any tests would have served no purpose either as combustion would have become  degraded .
In passing I would mention that the use of the rolled brass cartridges gave performance problems all of their own and the change to drawn brass was a step change up, in performace

regards

barry

The problem of barrels getting hot with repetitive fire is an old one, we only have to look at the faithfull old smelly (SMLE No 1) and it's children. They were fitted with handguards made of wood from day one. Machine guns are able to have their barrels changed in combat conditons so there is no doubt that barrels got very hot at Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift. That they ever reached the red hot stage would be quite impossible I would think. It was probably a bit of idiom as we all probably used that expression to give the impression of extreme heat.
The rifle I mentioned in my previous post was built by Holland & Holland, one of the best rifle makers in the world and it's sling eye fell off the barrel under rapid fire. It can happen to any rifle.
Nitro450.

Trouble is, we will never know if those at Isandlwana had problems with over heating rifles? There was one complaint by Henry Hook at Rorkes Drift. But when you break down the the number of rounds fired at RD to the hours of fighting it works out around 17.5 rounds fired per man per hour.

and that gentleman is the rub. we can never reproduce similar conditions. i have heard that black powder of that age burned hotter than modern black powder. it has been my experience that black powder does NOT degrade with age if stored properly. i had fired many old black powder cartridges in my youth that i wished i had now for their collector value.
did these rifles get hot? sure. i know this from personal experience. but I've also found that they would foul up so bad that they would become unloadable
and just looking at those coiled brass cartridges brings a chill to my heart, having spent many hours removing ruptured cases from trapdoor springfield and rolling block style rifles.

nitro450 wrote:

Hi Free,
Yes, having shot with muzzle loading rifles many times I know it doesn't take long for the fouling to build up enough to make loading impossible without cleaning the bore. I'm about to find out about it again soon, as i will be trying out a couple including an 8 bore rifle which should test me well and truly !!!

sweet jesus! that sir is a big gun. is it rifled or smoothbore?

Hi All,
Black powder or "gunpowder" heat on combustion was a direct function of the percentage of Sulphur in the three part mix. More Sulphur in the mix tended to take it down it bit. Trials were done on this and the recipe changed post AZW.
Neither sulphur nor the other two other  components , ie potassium nitrate (saltpeter)  and charcoal were hygroscopic in their natural state but once combusted the residue was extremely so. This tended to form a very corrosive  ( caustic) deposit in the chamber and breach area of the weapon. Frequent cleaning was required to keep the weapon usable.
The problems came with wet powder. This came about because the damaged MH rolled brass cases were sometimes not sealing at the case neck properly and thus allowing  the ingress of some moisture. Ambient temperatures in the valleys of Zululand in 1878-79 were in the 40's with  frequent  torrential  rainfall and extreme humidity. In addition to which troops were frequently crossing rivers and getting their bandoliers wet.
Despite all of this the MH was cutting edge technology of the time.
At the Sandy Hook tests done in the USA the Mh was pitched against some American weapons but it did not come out well.

regards

barry

I have read the Sandy Hook test a number of times and the results aren't that surprising really. Most of those tests were against the Springfield although the Sharps Borchardt was also tested. One example 'The Long Range test' the Springfield fired 70 shots at 2500 yards and managed to hit the target 5 times, the MH with 80 shots only hit the target once. Not that brilliant considering that the target was 44ft by 22ft.

waterloo50 wrote:

I have read the Sandy Hook test a number of times and the results aren't that surprising really. Most of those tests were against the Springfield although the Sharps Borchardt was also tested. One example 'The Long Range test' the Springfield fired 70 shots at 2500 yards and managed to hit the target 5 times, the MH with 80 shots only hit the target once. Not that brilliant considering that the target was 44ft by 22ft.

amazing!

I've held back a bit on this to let the debate go, but guys, theres too many "suposed facts" flying about. I've written quite a few times regarding the "overheating rifles" issue. Indeed hook does mention about the heat of his rifle in the Royal Magazine.

Only a year later at Maiwand, with the same ammunition, rifles, ammo boxes but with far hotted climatic and dusty conditions the 66th fought out a three hour engagement, firing as many (if not more) rounds than the 24th, one company alone under Lt Beresford Pierse fired in excess of 5000 rounds. Lt Bray mentions hot rifles and the men were using the ammunition wrappers as temporary heat shields, but it did not slow the rate of fire. over 97,000 roounds were officially recorded.

You cannot cook off a martini round in the chamber, black powder does not react to raw heat, if that was the case every muzzle loader this side of the Ptomac would have been shot in the hand by their Enfields and Springfields way before a Martini was even thought of (well..just about) and the belief that bullets where flying out and chipping teeth also a fanciful Idea, the bottom of the cartridge is nipped into the chamber by the breech block catching the bottom edge and held into place by the tumbler compressing the mainspring in the action of cocking.It cannot fly out. I got to fire live ten rounds in 45 seconds at Bisley in February, and some TV shows would have you that you could not touch it after that, I passed about the rifle for a few doubters to hold, interesting hums of surprise all around... a regular sunday is 50 live rounds in about an hour, again, I emphasise its hot, but not enough to burn. I filmed the firing BTW.

FWIW the Sandy Hook test is the only thing tha seems to draw people in as its the only thing on the web and it cannot be relied upon its wrong in the context, Waterloo, I'll take those facts and raise you four, so unaware of the two official Small Arms & Seige Committee reports one dated 23rd October 1879 entitled  “Report on the Field Firing, 1878-9 and Summary of Opinions on the use of Rifle Fire at Extreme Ranges." or, the report dated 25th March 1880 Entitled “Memorandum by the siege Operations committee on Long Range Musketry Fire at Dungeness", theres also the report from 31st December 1881by Lt Kays Musketry Inspector of the 2nd Battn H.L.I, after testing extreme range firing with the New Enfield No2 Hanging auxiliary sight(which was actually sighted to 3000 yards**) “the fire of the Martini Henry when fitted with these sights was found to be most effective against troops of all arms up to 2000 yards, and although at longer ranges the percentage of actual hits on the targets was not so great, yet the ground in their immediate neighbourhood was so sown with bullets the moral effect of which would be very great. The last experiment with 52 marksmen, practically rendered a bridge 2000 yards away, impassable for five minutes, in which time 124 hits were recorded upon it". Maximin elevated range of a Martini Henry is about 2300 yards at the point the bullet trajectory is about 1:2, trying to hit a target at 2500?..the maths speaks for itself.

Most revealing is this one by Major Chatfield, D.A.A.G for Musketry, who recorded a 13.5% hit rate on target at 2000 yards reporting “the result proves that the reverse slope of a hill, about 100 feet high, having a gradient of 1:12, can be swept by Martini fire at 1,900 yards, and that troops placed under cover of such ground would be unsafe, even in extended order or lying down, at a distance of 2,000 yards”.

Barry,I know you like your powder facts, in reality in the test of ammunition on the 21st Feb 1880  when ammo dated 1874-1879 was tested on a Watkins Chronograph at Woolwich, proved there was minimal deterioration of the powder, with a mean variance of only 30fps being recorded. (apart from one batch dated 7/5/1877 which lost 80fps, the cause I'll expain later).
The powder composition did not change after the early trials with K powder, once adopted RFG2 became the standard Waltham abbey powder and consisted of a formula of Saltpetre, pure sulphur, and charcoal at a ratio of 75:10:15 respectively, with chemical testing being carried out at Waltham Abbey every week. only Curtis and Harvey No6 (which RFG2 emulated) was used as alternative.  What the 21st Feb test did prove, it that year on year, depending on the atmospherics, the powder became hygroscopic, and took on moisture prior to packing, From 1880 onwards small arms gunpowder was stored in a dry environment, for at least a year, until only .02% moisture was attained before being loaded into the cartridges.

Likewise, the choking of the cases and water ingress was picked upon by Redvers Buller in 1880, however he alluded to its storage in Bandoliers, and never chose to make a formal report on it. To balance this, this I what I found in the Enfield archives at Kew..sums it up in a nutshell. an unfired Martini Henry cartridge, collected from the battlefield debris at Isandlwana, was sent by Major General Evelyn Wood back to the Royal Small Arms Factory. Lt Colonel Brackenbury had the cartridge tested in the proof Martini Henry of the Royal Gunpowder factory at Waltham Abbey on 5th October 1880. After over 17 months lying in the Veldt, under the burning South African sun, the torrential rains of summer and the freezing winter, the cartridge went of first time and achieved a velocity of 1313 feet per second.

** the adoption and trial of the.402" Experimental Martini MkIV rifle (actually a smaller bored MkIII) with its 9 groove reverse ratchet rifling in 1881 proved 3000 yards extreme range was indeed  possible,and it shot the t*ts off the Springfeld, and only Gras and the Veritelli got anywhere near it..but thats another story for another time.

I'm about a month off the writing for the book,its grow arms and legs, its being published by IMA in the States, European and Colonial willbe from my website www.martinihenry.org its finishing at about 120,000 words, god knows how many pages,colour and B & W images and many War Office unpublished tables and graphs that will entertain for hours. we think it'll be about £39

Hi Neil
Excellent , I'm looking forward to getting one .
Cheers 90th

thank you NEIL for your informative post.

I wonder if they used these positions at sandy hook? http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/03/rifle-shooting-positions-back-position.html

Hi Neil,
Thanks for your inputs into the debate on this thread.
The current term for anyone capable of  printing sub caliber groupings is , quote, "he could shoot the ears off a flee at two hundred metres"
In terms of cook-offs with the MH during the AZW, I do not recall seeing reports of such a problem . However in more recent times I have experienced it with modern weapons. Different era, different ammo and components, so there was no comparison.
Now a question about the BP recipe and the changes made to it, prior to and post AZW; would you perhaps have the details of those ?. The relative realtionships of the three components , by mass or volume, would be interesting.
The mention that you made about a round being picked up at Isandlwana and fired off 17 months later is not particularly meaningful as is it the rolled brass damaged cases that were the problem. In the case quoted it is silent on this.
The chrono reading mentioned were interesting but not complete unless ambient temperature and pressure are quoted simultaneously.
I look forward to your book on the MH.

regards

barry

As far as fouling is concerned; people seem to forget that the soldiers would routinely clean their weapons when circumstances permitted. Even when standing to for an extended time (by sections so that not all weapons would be being cleaned at the same time). Each soldier had a rag issued to him and a cleaning jag for the cleaning rod for exactly this reason. One may not wish to dwell on what liquid they used in action but they certainly did not wait for the end of the overall battle before they cleaned their rifles. Likely in pauses between attacks. Ensuring that this had been done was a duty expected of a junior NCO. Black powder fouling is controlled in cartridge arms by a wax disk sandwiched between card scrapers behind the bullet and by regular cleaning of the bore.

Barry if you want it I do have it, the date fired, the rifle number, range, wind, temp, barometric pressure, bulb, figure of merit date, recorded velocity of MkIII ammunition loaded with RFG2 from 1872-1879, and comparison with C & H no6 date 1880. It's assesed from five different (numbers recorded) rifles, fired from a mechanical rest, then a sand bag.from 100-800 yards

For example date of firing 15.10.1880, rifle C9280, 800 yards, Wind N.E. Calm, Temp 40, BP 30.28, Bulbs 1-4, with all dates of Ammunition.

Its in Supply 5/896 Part 1 of the 1881 blue paper of Martini Henry Rifles and Ammunition, Proceedings of a Committee held at the War Office on the 18th January 1881 Confidential If you want a copy of it I'll e-mail it over,  

Fascinating stuff for me an you, probably as boring as "the Patriot" for others.

BTW interestingly you mention the composition of the gunpowder was changed after the Zulu wars, wheres that information from?, as I haven't spotted that in any of the Small Arms Committee documents . What I do have is the chemical manufacturing criterion for RFG2 in 1880. In effect the quality control and it was not allowed to vary to any extent that you alluded, possibly in earlier powders but not RFG2: it reads as such, Samples may be selected from any portion of the gunpowder supplied and submitted to chemical analysis. The analysis should show. 1st that saltpetre exisits in a portion of not less than 75% and not more than 76%, and not more than 1 part chlorine. nor more than four parts sodium are contained in 3,000 parts saltpetre.  That the proportion of sulphur is not less than 9.5% nor more than 10.5%.and that it has been thoroughly freed from earthy matter and other impurities. Density, the absolute density must not exceed 1.75 nor be less than 1.72., hygrometric test must show not contain less than .9% nor more than 1.2%. after exposure to an atmosphere saturated with moisture, temp 60F and not absorb more than 2.75% in 24 hours. Thats why the velocity loss was carefully investigated and the moisture content regulated, leading ultimately to the dating stencilled on the ammo boxes.

Hi Neil,
Thanks for the offer. Indeed, this is the stuff that "powder heads" feed on.
What will be interesting is to apply correction factors to those results to see what might have been at Isandlwana on 22/01/79. Only of academic interest of course.
I will e-mail you with my address.

regards

barry

yulzari wrote:

As far as fouling is concerned; people seem to forget that the soldiers would routinely clean their weapons when circumstances permitted. Even when standing to for an extended time (by sections so that not all weapons would be being cleaned at the same time). Each soldier had a rag issued to him and a cleaning jag for the cleaning rod for exactly this reason. One may not wish to dwell on what liquid they used in action but they certainly did not wait for the end of the overall battle before they cleaned their rifles. Likely in pauses between attacks. Ensuring that this had been done was a duty expected of a junior NCO. Black powder fouling is controlled in cartridge arms by a wax disk sandwiched between card scrapers behind the bullet and by regular cleaning of the bore.

I've often wondered if the soldiers cleaned their rifles during the action at Rorkes Drift.

Almost certainly. From the 1896 Instructions, but using the reference specifically to Martini Henry arms:
'Wrap a piece of damp rag, flannel, or tow, round the jag of the cleaning rod, so as to cover it, and rub carefully up and down the barrel to remove the fouling. Water should not be used [ie not to pour it down but to use a damp rag etc.] If the cleaning-rod sticks fast in the barrel it should be driven back by blows with a wooden mallet, not dragged through the muzzle. Replace the piece of rag, &c. by a dry one, and then by an oiled one (woollen if possible) and pass it a few times up and down the barrel.'

If only they had "Spray & Wipe" in those days !!! We have found it to be the best way of removing black powder fouling in moments. Nothing in it to corrupt the metal in the bore, it leaves black powder solvents in the shade and a fraction of the price.

In earlier days of shooting BP we used soapy water and follwed up with boiling water to remove it all and leave the barrel dry. This was the recommended method in the 19th centuryand earlier.
Nitro450.

i seen a photo somewhere of british troops with a large brass funnel pouring water down a martini henry barrel. we use WINDEX at the range and scalding hot soapy water at home. at the black powder cartridge match's we use a blow tube between shots. but I can't imagine a soldier blowing down the barrel of a hot martini henry.

I had a look through some of the accounts, no one mentions cleaning during the quiet times. Caleb Wood was more interested in sharing a pipe with his mates.

RD. I don't think enough rounds were fired per hour to cause over heating. 17.5 per man per hour. Some of cause, may have fired more than others.

"...We were, of course, using Martinis, and fine rifles they were, too.  But we did so much firing that they became hot, and the brass of the cartridges softened, the result being that the barrels got very foul and the cartridge-chamber jammed.  My own rifle was jammed several times, and I had to work away with the ramrod till I cleared it..."

Private Alfred Henry Hook, V.C. in a subsequently recorded interview with Walter Wood that appeared in his series Survivors' Tales of Great Events.

William Whitelocke Lloyd in his work On Active Service includes the following sketch and comment:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

John Y.

John Young wrote:

"...We were, of course, using Martinis, and fine rifles they were, too.  But we did so much firing that they became hot, and the brass of the cartridges softened, the result being that the barrels got very foul and the cartridge-chamber jammed.  My own rifle was jammed several times, and I had to work away with the ramrod till I cleared it..."

Private Alfred Henry Hook, V.C. in a subsequently recorded interview with Walter Wood that appeared in his series Survivors' Tales of Great Events.

William Whitelocke Lloyd in his work On Active Service includes the following sketch and comment:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

John Y.

thus begins the evolution of the handguard.

Frank Allewell wrote:

I had a look through some of the accounts, no one mentions cleaning during the quiet times. Caleb Wood was more interested in sharing a pipe with his mates.

Indeed so. The same is found amongst the accounts of the Peninsula War but guns were cleaned nevertheless. So routine an activity as to be barely mentioned. Much like saluting. I have no recollection of a Peninsula War soldier mentioning saluting but they surely did. Reminding myself, I find that soldiers were issued three rags (selvedges from cloth for other purposes) annually. They would have been washed clean when opportunity arose. 'Boiling out' by pouring boiling water down the barrel was a late addition to the task and for barrack use only and a store item held by the Sergeant Armourer. Whilst the Martini Henrys would have had fouled barrels this was not like muskets where the fouling would build up until the (deliberately grossly undersized) ball would not be rammed down. The wax disk and glazed card scrapers behind each bullet would scrape off fouling left behind the paper patched bullet and leave a film of wax to soften the adherence of the fouling from the charge. The bore would be left dirty but still useable. I have fired up to 50 rounds in an hour with no problem in mine and test guns fired hundreds of rounds without cleaning. Accuracy drops off a little but the weapon still functions. The barrel does burn the finger tips after 25 rounds rapid fire though! I have a canvas hand guard patterned for my Mannlicher M1888 which I put on my Martini Henry for rapid or prolonged fire. The Mannlicher M1888 can also cope with prolonged fire of black powder 8x50R rounds in the same way and the system was universal in black powder military rifles across all nations until smokeless powder came in. I look forward to Neil revealing all in his new book.

See what I said about the SMLE and it's children, started with the Mark one No. 1 and continued through to the SLR or L1A1 semi-auto in 7.62mm. Yes rapid fire in combat can singe the fingers when using the wrong rifle !!

there were many different types of cleaner bullets used during the American civil war. most were deemed ineffective.