The Blame Game

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I will do the same.

First, thank you Frederic for copying me into this correspondence. Your analysis is well done and very useful.

Two thoughts occur to me. Our understanding is that Chelmsford did not send any instructions about defending the camp to Pulleine ( either himself or via Crealock). We do believe, however, that Clery sent a written instruction, the specific content of which he could not quite remember at the Inquiry. Chelmsford’s expression of relief at hearing that also tends to indicate that he had not sent any instruction himself. In my view, this instruction from Clery has to be the prime candidate for the document found by Fynn. But that raises a question in my mind, why would Fynn return this document to Chelmsford and not to Clery? (in the same way that Crealock’s order book was later returned to him). The other thing we know is that, on returning to the camp in March, documents were recovered from around the General’s tent - these were no doubt seen by PS and, I imagine, would have been returned to Chelmsford. It seems to me that Chelmsford’s camp were likely to seize on any evidence available to them that Pulleine had not carried out instructions, while PS and the regiment would not wish to re-inforce that argument.

Steve

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:12 pm

Let me pick up on the point I made that the "Instructions to Column Commanders' would not have been addressed to Pulleine but to the column commander. Even if those orders had been passed to Col Pulleine by the column commander they would not have been addressed to him. Carbutt sysa very clearly they were " Lord Chelmsford’s written orders to Colonel Pulleine regarding the defence of the camp". The phrase written orders to Colonel Pulleine is I believe a key point that would eliminate the general orders and put the emphasis back onto the Clery orders.
Would the fact that those orders had already been divulged, and it seems, accepted at the COI not tend to take away any surprise or blame worthy aspect? After all there was testimony that Pulleine had quoted those orders to Durnford so I cant see any tactical advantage having been given to either of the sides.
The document I can see would be in the interests of all and sundry to hide would have been Chelmsfords copy of an instruction to Durnford dated the 21st January 1879. That is a potential order that could have destroyed Chelmsfords "poor Durnford' argument and also passed the blame firmly back to the 24th.
Just a thought.
Frederic I would echo Steve, well done.

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Just to add more flavour to the pot, this is from Terry Sole's "For God Queen and Colony" on Carbutt's Border Rangers (that is Capt. T M Carbutt).

"Once equipped and mounted the rangers of the white section patrolled the Waschbank Valley, the Sunday River drifts and the approaches to Ladysmith. However, after the disaster at Isandlwana and the defence of Rorke's Drift the corps extended its field of operation. The rangers arrived at Rorke's Drift five days after the battle to find Lt. John Chard, who had been in command, very ill and in need of medical attention. They escorted him back to Ladysmith where he was nursed back to health ............ There are reports that Carbutt's two sons served with the regiment, but it has been impossible to confirm..."

It seems likely that H L Carbutt was one of those sons?

Steve

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:22 pm

Hugh Lancaster Carbutt I believe Steve

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Not one of the sons but the brother of Capt.T M Carbutt.

Steve

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:53 pm

Frank
I think Frederic meant that. He was trying to say it was the Central Column commander's Instructions FAO Henry Pulleine.
I should have picked that up and clarified.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank Allewell wrote:: Frederic
I will republish my comments sent by e mail for the benefit of the forum and an aid to move the discussion forward.

I would comment that at the time the ‘Instructions to column commanders was issued the Column commander would have been Glynn therefore it wouldn’t be addressed to Pulleine ( He was never a column commander ). I again would speculate that the only mention we have of documents being found BEFORE the completion of PS manuscript was the 14th March, that visit the mention is of documents and Order Books being found at Chelmsfords tent area ( That’s a combination of statements from Black and PS)

Regards

Bonjour Frank,
Do you know where was Fynn, the 14th March?
About, "the Instructions to column commanders", I have in mind Glyn's intructions to column commander as inherited by Pulleine.

Regards.

Frédéric

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: Frank
I think Frederic meant that. He was trying to say it was the Central Column commander's Instructions FAO Henry Pulleine.
I should have picked that up and clarified.

Bonsoir Mr Whybra,
Exactly.Thanks

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According to Knight and Greaves "Who's Who in the Zulu War" Fynn was with Chelmsford on 22nd and spent the night on the battlefield. He went to his home at Msinga on 24th January and was there in March and April. In May he joined the first major burial expedition, where he helped identify the colonial dead. If that is right he cannot have found the instructions to Pulleine on 14 March, but I suppose he could have done so on 22nd January or in May.

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

The question in this thread is what that could read PS before completing his manuscript in April 1879.
In this perspective, the question of the contents of the document found by Fynn (although exciting) is somewhere secondary .
It seems to me that it's necessary to prove FIRST that PS was able to have this document in the hands before the end of the "deadline" (April 1879).

Regards

Frédéric

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

rusteze wrote:: According to Knight and Greaves "Who's Who in the Zulu War" Fynn was with Chelmsford on 22nd and spent the night on the battlefield. He went to his home at Msinga on 24th January and was there in March and April. In May he joined the first major burial expedition, where he helped identify the colonial dead. If that is right he cannot have found the instructions to Pulleine on 14 March, but I suppose he could have done so on 22nd January or in May.

Steve

Steve,
Well done.
May is too late (I.E: in connection to this thread / PS / April 1879).
It seems that only the 22/23 January is possible (I.E: again in connection with this thread).
Regards

Frédéric

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Frederic

Absolutely right. But my biggest problem is that I still don't know why we think PS saw some document from the battlefield that has been hidden/destroyed or lost. Nothing I have seen so far explains why the PS manuscript was kept secret. Until we can examine the manuscript I think we willl continue to flounder.

Steve

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:39 am

Steve
this is the page in question
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Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour,
Thank you for sharing this information with us.
The mention of the order book is very intriguing.
What was this order book? Glyn/ Clery order book? Officially, it was never found.
Regards

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

In connection with the Carbuut's letter, the mention of the 14 March is interesting.

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:32 am

Frederic, its plural, orders books, just to add to the mystery.
Doesn't Black say his finds were at Chelmsfords tent area?

Regards

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 am

Precisely. Glyn and Durnford's order bookS and memoranda, perhaps?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Morning all.

Thank you Frank for posting that page, I was not implying that you should release the document, as I know you are under some constraints. Rather, it is time for Brecon to encourage further study and debate by formally making it available. PS makes an interesting remark about "efforts made to place responsibility on those from whom it had been entirely removed". And that it came to a stop once the "order books, memoranda, etc" had been discovered on 14th March. I do not think that can mean Pulleine, but could refer both to Glyn and Durnford. The scapegoating of Durnford did not stop until well after 14 March, if anything it grew more intense until the Crealock order book was found (or should I say was admitted to). Julian our posts crossed.

Steve

Guest

An extract from a letter from Chelmsford to Glyn, dated Durban 18th March

"Bellairs will have forwarded you a memorandum from Crealock and myself regarding my position when with No. 3 Column.
The question is sure to crop as to our relative responsibilities, and I am anxious not to write anything on the subject without giving you an opportunity of saying if I am correct or not in my opinion.
I have stubbornly avoided, in writing home, expressing any opinion as to the cause of the disaster at Insandlana..."

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That's interesting Lee, not in Laband's book of Chelmsford's letters.

Clarke adds some footnotes in her "Zululand at War" (page 107) which throw some light on what was going on. She says in relation to letters from Clery, " Apart from reasons given by Clery, there was the element of jealousy or rivalry between Crealock and Belairs. This whole episode seems to have been a three-cornered contest between Belairs, Crealock and Clery, with Glyn and Chelmsford being manipulated." She also says " Clery simplified the issue; during February and March Glyn received at least five requests for information from Belairs, and Glyn sent replies to them all. The one couched in "most decorous and respectful language" is printed in War Office Papers 33/34. The long report written by Clery and sent under his own name was not dispatched to Belairs until 9 March, so no reaction to this report could yet have been received when his (Clery's) letter was written to Alison."

So the implication is that there were some pretty pointed correspondence between Crealock/Chelmsford and Glyn (via Belairs) that we have not seen. And Chelmsford's letter to Glyn on 18 March came after those exchanges and after whatever was found on the battlefield on the 14 March.

Steve

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:39 pm

Lee
Where is the Chelmsford-Glyn letter of 18th March? I've not encountered it before.

Rusteze
Re your last para.
The 'order books, etc' may have been found by Black at ISANDHLWANA on 14th March but they would have had to reach Chelmsford pretty damned quickly for him to have absorbed the consequences of their finding and written the letter to Glyn from DURBAN on 18th March.
Too quickly in fact; the time available is too tight.

Guest

Unfortunately I only seem to have photocopies of about 6 pages of the letter. I found them whilst clearing out a whole load of old files that have been accumulating over the years - so I really can't remember where they came from....but would have to assume the original letter is at Brecon?

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:19 pm

Lee/Julian
Ive read that particular letter in the not to distant past. Its possible I saw it at Brecon, in which case I can only think it would be in Catalogue 2 ref 1983.13. Only a possibility though.

Regards

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:28 pm

Frank
I'll check when I next visit and let you both know.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I thought it might be useful to compile a summary of documents recovered at Isandhlwana at various dates - as I currently understand it. There is a growing list.

22 JANUARY 1879
Chelmsford's force spends the night at the battlefield. No recovered documents recorded.

14 MARCH 1879. Major Black's first visit.
Penn Symonds says "Order Books, Memoranda, etc.". recovered.
Harness says "the accounts of the regimental canteen, five pound note, no end of books and such like lying about; and several of the general's papers which were collected as far as possible.

15 MAY 1879. Major Black's second visit.
Pope's diary recovered.

21 MAY 1879. Major Black's third visit.
Disputed. Offy Shepstone removes papers from Durnford's body.
Fynn picks up Pulleine's orders from Chelmsford.
Chelmsford's copy book recovered. Reported by Forbes.

Date unknown.
Durnford's orders found by Trooper Pearse NC. Discovered by Jackson and Whybra at RE Museum. Thought to have been deposited by Frances Colenso.

20 JUNE 1879. Black's fourth visit.
Returns again to bury dead of 24th. No recovered documents recorded.

August 1879?
Crealock's notebook recovered by Major Black. Returned to Crealock but concealed for some time.

Comments and corrections please.

Steve

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:21 am

Crealock wrote that his notebook was found seven months after the battle by Black. He is specific about it being seven - he at first wrote six, then crossed it out and wrote seven.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Thanks Julian. I have amended it to August. Seems very late?

Steve

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:01 am

Black at iSandlwana in August?

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:22 am

Chelmsfords copy book was found on the 21st May (Forbes)

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:38 am

Rusteze/Frank
I know August sounds odd. I'm quoting from Crealock's letter to Maj. Jekyll at the War Office, dated 15.7.1886 (RE Museum 4901-31/9 side 1) which reads:
"I imagine you refer to the copy of the order which I made at 2 a.m. 22 Jany & which was found on the field 6 (struck through) 7 months later by Colonel Black & forwarded me & which, stained with the mud of the field, lies before me."
He's writing seven years later and this could be an error on Crealock's part but, if it is, it's a curious one to make. Perhaps the 'error' is deliberate and designed to obfuscate.
The wonders of Isandhlwana - you open up one can of worms only to find another can of worms inside!
I think "August 1879?" is apt.

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:52 am

Isnt June the last visit by Black? Would it be possible that he actually means the time it took to get back to him, ergo: Book returned August in England?

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Bonjour,
I don't know if this information is already known by you and useful, but PS was a member of the first expedition at Isandhlwana (14th March).
Regards

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

It could be so. Historical Records of the 24th says, "After the second division was broken up on 28th July 1879, Sir Garnet took F and H companies 2/24th under Major Bromhead as his special escort ............... These companies then fell back on Isandhlwana, completing the burial of the dead." Not Major Black, but they were there that late.

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

I wonder if this copy of the manuscript was really written between February and April 1879.
Take a look at the page 63 :
PS wrote : « Whatever the merits this account may possess (…) and I was only at this time a (duty ?) Officier, it has the advantage of having been written from close personal observation and from notes and conversations made ont the spot ».
I have some doubts for two reasons :
- His comment « I was only at the time » (about a battle which took place only three months ago? He became Major only in 1881)
- « From notes and conservations made on the spot ».
The only date possible is the 14th March. I don't think he had many time this day (I.E : It was the first visit of Isandhlwana since the 22 january) for these occupations…...

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:07 pm

Frederic
I knew he was with Black on the 15th May but not aware he was there in March?

Cheers

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Bonjour Frank,
I have an account somewhere. He was with the party which discovred the body of Stuart Smith the 14th March .

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frank,
I will check my notes.
Regards

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

"only at the time a duty officer" is an interesting remark. Usually a rotating role changed every 24 hours, to act as the commanding officers representative. PS would presumably have been duty officer for Glyn rather than Chelmsford. May explain why he gathered statements and viewed recovered material. He says on his own initiative, but surely with a view to presenting it to Glyn. I agree with Frederic that from the words used the manuscript does give the impression that it was compiled some time later.

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

« A visit to Isandula - description of the scene – Capte town, March 25.
On the 4th (sic) of March, a party consisting of four officers of the 24th Regient, twelve officers and NCOs of the NNC and eleven of the Natal Native Police, th whole under the command of Major Black, of the 24th proceeded at seven a.m....After crossing, Captain Symons pushed forward with the police to examin the valley at the foot of the Bashee height.(...) The stench from the carcases of the forses, mules, owxen, and the remains of the poor fellows who fell was fearful ».

Indeed, the 14th March.
To my knowledge there was no Captain Symons in the Police.

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:32 pm

Frederic
Im just going through the visits:
14th March they didn't spend a lot of time on the battlefield as they saw 'smoke signals ' and men gathering to cut them of.
The 28th March patrol was cancelled because of the height of the water.
9th April Dartnell didn't reach the battlefield but turned back crossing at Fugitives drift.
15th May Black reached the battlefield then followed the fugitives trail, that was when Smiths body was found.
21st May General Marshall led the expedition to bring back the waggons. Durnford was found and Forbes and Melton Prior recorded there iconic written and sketched images.
Feb 3rd of course was the Black Harford discovery of Melvill but they didn't cross the river.

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In connection with my previous post about "my doubts", "14th March they did'nt spend a lot of time on the battlefield".

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:38 pm

I haven't checked it as yet but I seem to recall that the police unit on the 14th March was commanded by Dartnell ?
I need to dig into the files, so your probably correct Frederic.

Cheers

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Do you have, the same doubts about the date of the Manuscript (February-April 1879)?

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Not sure how reliable this is but Holt says this in "The Mounted Police of Natal".

"Two of the colours of the 24th regiment had been lost at Isandhlwana, and ten days after the fight the police accompanied a party which left the laager at RD to search for them. ............... The party hunted for a couple of hours amongst the bodies of the men near the place where the guard tent had stood, but no colours were found.........Major Black who commanded the party deemed it prudent to retire."

If it is to be believed, we are talking about 2 February.

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Tut, tut, tut !
You have already studied this question before my post!!!! !

Subject: Re: The Blame Game Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:46 pm

Steve
I wouldn't put to much credence into that, the first real outride, apart from Maorie shooting everything in sight, was the Feb 3rd with Harford and Black down towards the drift.
The first Battlefield trip was Black and Dartnell on the 14th March.
Frederic
I don't believe that PS had any reason to lie about the date he wrote the ORIGINAL manuscript. As and when the full manuscript is posted you will soon agree with me. Sorry if that sounds enigmatic (Énigmatique)

Cheers

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I just say that you have alredy studied this point and this comment is not important, it's just a joke...
For the rest, I don't have a copy of the whole manuscript, so I can't say PS was a liar. I have only some doubts about the real date of his manuscript after reading a few extracts.
I.E : Harford completed probably later his narrative, for me he is not a liar.
Regards

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Looking again at Frank Emery's little booklet on 24th at Isandhlwana which he wrote in 1978 based, very selectively, on Penn Symonds manuscript. I was amused to read in his preface:

" It could not be published until after the death of persons likely to be affected by any controversial matter. Now it is high time that Penn Symons was heard, a voice from the 24th telling of what befell his regiment a hundred years ago."

Thirty five years later and we might just be getting there!

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank Allewell wrote:: I haven't checked it as yet but I seem to recall that the police unit on the 14th March was commanded by Dartnell ?
I need to dig into the files, so your probably correct Frederic.

Cheers

Bonsoir Frank,
PS was without doubt at Isandhlwana the 14th March.
Take a look at " In Zululand with the British army" by Norris_Newman (p. 138 in my edition / Leonaur).
Regards
Frédéric

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Please, read "without any doubt" at Isandhlwana.

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