Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V

Good to see your back online Gary

This is my opinion for what its worth concerning the torture of band boys, we know for a fact that Imperial troops were gutted like sheep why is it too hard to believe it happen to boys we need to define a boy and we all have seen that famous painting of that last stand at Isandlwana and that young boy within the square for starters weather he was 12, 14 or even 19 years old there still teenagers. They would not have gotten any special treatment because of there age believe me.

So where they hanging on butchers hooks well I dont know but they all met a horrid death thats for certain.

Hi All,

To use the argument that that there was no reliable witnesses to report on the Isandlwana battlefield because the departure of Chelmsford's forces the following morning, in the pitch dark and could not see anything, is pure fallacy, as a whole company of  Maj Dartnell's troopers , who were the rear guard of that departing column, actually left the devasted battleground well after sunrise,.... in clear daylight conditions. They saw all the wrecking and carnage, in short they saw everything, and reported on it and left accounts.  They even went to the site of their wrecked tents which had been left standing that morning to seek their missing kit. One even attempted to recover some  lost spurs which he needed and had seen in the battlefield debris , but was balked by his officer Insp Mansel. 
The early sunrise in Zululand  in January will be well remembered by all those who have visited Isandlwana during their tours at that time of the year.
Disbelievers  interested in pursuing this interesting  question further are directed to a recent well researched and witten essay published on this forum and authored by two very competent researchers,  Wybrow and Bomy  on sunrise/sunset and light condition on 23/01/1879. Remember, the eclipse was the day before, …..perhaps that is what is confusing some. 
The fact that the WO , immediatly post Isandlwana, placed a prohibition on children been taken into battle conditions must have been motivated by something that happened on 22/01. 
Those who  refute the mutilations/bandboy issue must explain why they clutch on to and accept every other bit of information on Isandlwana, written or otherwise, but steadfastly reject this one which is based on a number of written  accounts  by those who were there , including some  senior people in the military. 
Those naysayers may be  just a simple case of naivity , or simply, those  who have  deselected the unpleasant.



regards


Barry
 
PS : There was a repeat of the mutilation/ body part harvesting in the '06 Bambhatha  Rebellion when  NMP Tpr  Brown was killed in a Zulu rebel ambush on the road near Marshall's hotel outside Greytown. The column he was in were busy evacuating civilians from the area. The trooper's body was found the next day, but the missing body parts were found in 5 seperate Zulu kraals within a 20km radius of the action.

Rather like AI, I see no reason why 'boys' were not butchered like sheep, I feel it is rather a problem of terminology of 'boy' and what that means to who.

Did the Zulus have concepts of Non Coms or even 'boys' - their boys were conscripted into the army (or rather military system) at an early age? In 'civil wars' Zulu Non Coms were killed with impunity by the victors. Those Udibi boys could not expect 'mercy' based on their age.

Some of the Zulu regiments were barely out of their teens (maybe the uVe).

Maybe in different cultures (and historical periods) you got 'older younger' (eg being dragged into the Saxon Fryd to face the Danish Great Army at 14?)

In the modern world we put artificial things (can't think of the word) on age - you can marry at 16, vote at 16, drink at 18....etc (all in the UK BTW), but I feel these are all arbitrary ages based on what society feels at the time.....

This seems a very emotive subject both at the time and now and many people dismiss it out of hand regardless of the evidence.

I think sometimes we struggle with different cultures (both modern and especially historical) and we look at things through our own (modern) eyes, according to our rules....

Cheers

Sime

Sime
There weren't any suvivors of the 'younger persuasion' so they did get killed. Those 'younger persuasion' were classified as boys, even at 16.
One mans butchered is another mans humanly euthanased.
This is the thing with isandlwana, lots of different opinions, I respect the rights to differ just as much as I respect the opinions of Fred, Julian and Ian. All knowledgable and informed people. Right, Wrong, not that important in life really, tomorrow my wine will still be chilled to 9 degrees ( thanks to my xmas present, new wine chiller) my wife will still snore and the Brexit debate will rage on. JY's gallant lady will still have land mines attached to his present and will destruct when he opens it triggering of a bout of 'caught you 'sucker' and 'April fool'. Ah yes fun to sing to in the Young household. And I shall contemplating the beauty of 24 bottles of ice cold Chardonnay.
"if one green bottle should accidently fall...………….."

What I would observe is that people are inclined to re-state their position on this subject based on how they have interpreted the evidence in the past. At this early point in the availability of the new evidence from Julian and Fred, I don't see many people acknowledging that three new sources of information have become available that might sway existing opinion. The first is the analysis in SAZW IV of the light conditions at Isandhlwana (as referenced earlier by Barry), the second is the commentary on Walter Granger's letter in SAZW V and the third is the original text in Penn-Symons account, now available for the first time in 139 years. I do not know whether IK has actually read the new evidence, perhaps he has. I do note that Snook, although supportive, has not yet got a hard copy. It is of course for people to evaluate the evidence and reach a view, but to do so without weighing the most recent sources and commenting on them is unlikely to be persuasive. It seems to me that arcane arguments about what we mean by "boys" is a side issue at best.

Steve

I'm not sure if I have just been 'told off' by Frank or not.....

God forbid, no Sime. If you had been it would have consisted of things like this . $^^*&((*(&(**%%£Y(
As in all the best Asterix books

This out here in Australia is known as having a bit each way !!

Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Drummer Boy's (Mentioned by)    Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:22 pm Reply with quote
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The roll clearly shows the drummers present and killed were no less than 17 years old judging by the date of their attestation and DOB at the time, however no doubt the sons of civilian wagon conductors were present.

I have just got back (yesterday) from trip No9. I was discussing the drummers with Mike Snook and Martin Everett at the top of the Telehane Ridge, we all agreed the drummer story is a typical piece of good old Victorian spin.

Why has Mike changed his mind , has he , or anyone else found some evidence ( primary source ) showing a Roll etc , all the evidence points to the youngest ' Boy ' in the Imperial forces KIA at Isandlwana was 16 or 17 yo , show me proof of another Roll etc , there may well have been ' Boy's ' white or coloured ( Colonial or Indigenous ) being part of the Column's make up , I don't dispute that .
90th

Hi

I spose people may change their minds - many years ago, I was an advocate of IK's view - based on the ages involved and the general perceived lack of torture in general etc (reinforced by what some Zulus stated at the time, for obvious reasons).

However since having joined this forum - the main reason for which is not to share my sparkling wit (and not having anything else to offer the group) but to learn more about the AZW, I have come round to another way of thinking.

However (and this is not meant to be derogatory to IK - I have a lot of time for his writing) I have not made my name/living 'bringing' the AZW to the masses, being considered by many to be a leading authority on the subject and therefore can change my position like a flapping flag.

Cheers

Simon

We should remember (as Julian and Fred point out in their analysis) that "Boys" is an army indication of rank, not something that is to do with any civilian concept of what constitutes a boy. This memorial surely makes the official position absolutely clear (with thanks to Frank for the photo).

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Steve

From what I could find Gurney & Gordon were 16 yo at Isandlwana , couldn't find Harrington or Richards ages , McEwan was nearly 16 . These Lads or the majority are listed as Boys in the Noble 24th , that isn't the issue , the age seems to be the issue , these Lads were 16 , McEwan was nearly 16 , I'm still waiting for my copy . Also from what I hear , and this isn't taking anything away from Frederic , Vol 5 states the Granger letter was previously unpublished , it was Published in a newspaper , but not sure when , I did know but it escapes me , possibly mid 1879 or 1929 ? , it was also published in Kate's book ' Rifle And Spear with the Zulu ' earlier this year , I've had a copy for a while , couple of years at least , Ian K sent it to me , he , in turn , got it from Lee Stevenson many moons ago , I think Frederic thought I'd passed it on to someone which I never did , we haven't spoken since he believed I did so . I'm looking forward to it's arrival .
90th

Can't really have this discussion without having read the analysis (all of what you say is acknowledged). But I would say that surely age is not the issue, it is whether or not mutilation before death was witnessed in some cases or not. If it was, then all of the rather more comfortable notions of ritual dis-embowling after death don't look quite so comfortable. Let's hope your copy arrives soon .

Steve

Found in my Folder that the ' Unpublished ' Granger Letter was in ' The Yorkshire Post And Leeds Intelligencer ' July 5th 1879 .
90th

Bonsoir,
In my opinion, the real age of boys in the Imperial Army is not a crucial issue.
The “Boys “ were classified in the Army, as “Boys”, even at 17  years old.
5 boys were killed at Isandhlwana: 3 belonged to the 2/24th , 2 to the 1/24th.
It’s interesting to know the terms  used  by  men who were with Chelmsford in the Mangeni  and  spent  the night on the battlefield the 22/23 January  to describe the Boys  killed at Isandhlwana.
Several of them used a “child” reference  to describe the Boys (see the essay).
Ditto for the soldiers who  visited the battlefield later or who were burial party members .
The Boys who belonged to the 2/24th Regiment were probably well-known (at least visually) by the older soldiers who belonged to the same Battalion.
The  conclusion is similar.  
For example :
-Captain W. Penn Symons  (2/24th) mentioned  in his manuscript “ a little band boys of the 2/24th, a mere child”. Keep in mind that his manuscript  was  handed to the Queen Victoria.
-The well-known quote from Sweeney’s letter , “Two drummers, Anderson and Holmes, and five little boys of the band about fourteen years of age. They butchered most awfully indeed. One little chap named M’Every they hung up on the chin to the hook”.
Note that In his mind, the five Boys were aged “about fourteen years old”.
There are no  boy named M’Every.
The reference  to M’Every could in fact refer to Boy MacEwan.
25B/1387 Boy Joseph S. MacEwan, attested 20th April 1877 aged 14. There is no trace of the actual date of his birth so he might have been 15 or 16 on the 22 January 1879 if he has not lie about his age.
As  Norman Holme pointed out in The Noble 24th, it was not uncommon for younger recruits  to lie about their age in an attempt to enlist.
Ultimately, whatever the real age of the Boys (or your opinion on the truth about  testimonies on act of atrocities),   the Boys killed at Isandhlwana seem to have been  considered  as  pre-teens , at most teens,  by the different witnesses.
Cheers
Frédéric

Frederic and Julian
Studies in the Zulu War Vol V ; Page 89 Footnote ( 2)  '' In spring 2016 Frederic Bomy shared his discovery with an acquaintance who passed it onto others who have since claimed the discovery as their own '' .
Please feel free to enlighten me as to who these people are , I think a retraction may well be in order ! .
90th

Bonjour Gary,
I took note of your request.
Actually, Julian is not at home and I can't contact him.
Your request will get an answer after the return of Julian at home in a few days.
Cheers
Frédéric

Gary,

Regarding the remark shared his discovery with an acquaintance who passed it onto others who have since claimed the discovery as their own.

Not the first time, and I doubt it will be the last time, such a thing has happened in the field of Zulu War research. I know from my own experiences.

JY

Yes agreed JY , although not named , I know to whom they are referring ! , and it's rubbish .
90th

JY are you sorted with your tickets yet?

Frank,

On Friday afternoon I issued a fait accompli, I dare not use the word ultimatum given tomorrow’s anniversary.

Within half an hour my ticket was paid for! Costing over a hundred quid more than if it had been paid for when initially requested! So you’ll have to buy another batch of lottery tickets I’m afraid to say!

On ground assigned from 19th to 27th January.

JY

Bonjour Gary,
I am reluctant to add anymore on this affair.
I just can say to you that after reading your explanations in May 2016 (by e-mail), I answered to you
that I I apologized and that this "affair " was behind me. I have a copy of this e-mail.
Apparently, you were in S.A in May 2016.
Cheers.
Frédéric

Yes Frederic I was in SA , and yes , I as well as you , need have no more to say on this subject , now that's it's been properly sorted .
90th

Gary,
Good.
Cheers
Frédéric

JY we will be at RD from the 21st till the 25th. Let me know if yur around and I will pop through to collect you for a drink at the RD pub. Must apologise though there will be a couple of Aussies around.

And a traffic cop !

Frank,

I’ll be around for sure. By-the-way please tell the young lady she’s a former Black Rat, and she must stop living in the past...

I bet she still files the ends of glass tubes containing crystals found in green boxes.

She’ll understand...

As for the antipodeans they are beyond help I’m afraid.

JY

Have you upgraded from Nqutu to the Battlefield like the Royal Welsh?

Frank,

Yes indeed I have swapped the “Afghan Compound” for the Battlefields Country Lodge.

JY

I received my copy of Studies in the Zulu War in the mail yesterday.

And have read  trooper Granger letter one thing I must say changed my mind concerning the location of Durnfords last stand is his testimony of fighting behind a stone wall  { cattle kraal }which was located in front of the tents and a zulu hut along side  this makes it below the current memorial of which I thought was the location of Durnfords last stand which is in fact behind were the bell tents would have been pitched.

Can anyone post a a clear and readable plan of the camp at Isandlwana so there were two Zulu huts in the fighting area one to the right of conical hill and this other one underneath Blacks Koppie which is beside were Durnford made his last stand was there any other Zulu huts in the area I would love to find out

Thanks Julian, Fedrick and Frank for those photos good work and keep it up.

Mainwearings map of 13 Nov. 1879.

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Steve

Thanks a million Steve I will take a very thorough look at it.

Just looking at it and it even indicates were the Zulu placed there dead a large clump of Zulu huts under the Nqutu range.

Certainly the best map I have seen and very detailed.

Hi

I wonder if Grangers letter indirectly throws any light on to the reputed friendly fire casualty - Lt Roberts of the NNMC.

If it happened presumably, it was at the time the 24th, NNIC and NNMC were defending/counter attacking on the spur.

Cheers

Simon

Hi Simon

Well I need to give it another read but no it does not mention anything about Lt Roberts , Trooper Granger would have been in the camp when this happend

Hi,

Yeah, I wondered if it would or could have happened when the volunteers were skirmishing near the Conical Hill and the artillery was firing in support of the combined firing line (24th NNIC & NNMC) - before one gun moved slightly South to fire in support of AWD.

It was mentioned that one of the guns shells burst 'nearly over the Native Contingent' (infantry I assume) so its evident that mistakes did happen.

Roberts was not mentioned in the letter but I was thinking the incident may have been alluded to.

Thanks

Sime

L
Frank,

Just a point of clarification for yourself and other forum members, there are five members of the Royal Welsh Association and the Friends of the Royal Welsh Museum, and myself, staying at the Battlefields Country Lodge.  I believe I am the spring-chicken of the group, the members being of more advanced years than I and with medical conditions to boot.

The serving members of the Royal Welsh are being accommodated on land adjoining Fugitives’ Drift Lodge.

My “Afghan Compound” comment appears to have been misconstrued as being a defensive area made up from shipping containers, rather than a number of buildings surrounded by walls like the property we were meant to be staying in Nquthu.

Sorry I know this is off topic, but as I made the comment here, I felt I should add the clarification here also.

JY

Duplicated entry.

Short term memory loss?

Another interesting point which I did not know is, as the second sounding in the troops took place a group of imperial troops were down the Manzimyama stream washing there uniforms would they have heard the alarm and returned back in time ?

JY
I will make contact in January to get together.
Sime
Looking at the retreat path of the rest of the men from the plateau I would guess Roberts was killed more to the west, close to the village area. Its an area Ive been looking at for a while now in terms of placing the historical Imusi and kraals.
Aussie
The grass has 'died of' around the area of the old kraal, its highly visible at present and should be when you get there in January.
Would love to see where you got the story of the guys washing their uniforms?
Cheers

aussie inkosi wrote:

Another interesting point which I did not know is, as the second sounding in the troops took place a group of imperial troops were down the Manzimyama stream washing there uniforms would they have heard the alarm and returned back in time ?

This is something I had never read before and an intrigued by it.....seems quite away to go to wash your 'smalls' out......

All
Sorry not to have been around – I’ve been visiting my new twin grandsons. In response to Steve’s posting from IK’s facebook page 6th Dec 9.54 on this thread, I am minded to comment:

When writing a history or indeed a review a good historian should avoid giving rise to all potential accusations of Gräuelpropaganda, that is, purposefully skewed selective treatment of evidence to prove a point or discredit a hypothesis, deliberate attempts to confuse the reader, inaccurate quotations and incorrect attributions, or mockery or ridicule implying the subject is not worth taking seriously.

In the ‘Boys’ section of the Granger essay in volume V, Frederic Bomy and I cannot be accused of selective treatment of evidence. We might however be accused of overkill because we decided to publish every known testimony regarding the Boys’ torture. We were careful to divide them into four:
2 eye-witness survivors’ accounts (Granger & Evans);
19 eye-witness accounts by those who spent the night on the saddle (13 who witnessed the Boys’ fate by torchlight and 6 members of the rearguard who witnessed it in the pre-dawn or in broad daylight [including 2 officers – Weallens & Hillier]);
9 eye-witness accounts by burial party members who found the Boys’ bodies (incl. 1 officer – Symons);
22 second- or third-hand accounts by non-participants which we were careful to discount absolutely as hearsay.

Nowhere did we cite Lieut. Maxwell’s tripping over in the total darkness and falling ‘into’ a dead soldier’s insides. To do so would be pointless: first, he had no torchlight, secondly, he saw nothing of the Boys. Bringing up this anecdote simply confuses the reader. In the ‘Wrecked Camp’ essay in volume IV we were careful to prove that the camp was perfectly visible to those in the rearguard. The burial party likewise saw the battlefield in full daylight. Good luck if you’re trying get an acquittal in court when faced with that prima facie evidence!

One way of dismissing all the accounts is to state baldly that there were no boys (aged under 16) in camp – that destroys the whole argument utterly. In terms of accuracy we showed that:
Boy McEwan attested 20.4.1877 aged 14 and was aged either 15 or 16 at Isandhlwana;
Boy Gordon attested 6.12.1875 aged 13 and was 16 at Isandhlwana;
Boy Gurney was born July-Sep 1863 and was aged 15 at Isandhlwana;
Boy Harrington’s age at attestation on 15.10.1878 was unknown - he could have been as young as 12-14;
Boy Richards’s age is unknown - he could have been 12-16.
A Boy of 16 was still a child (having taught many Year 11 boys in my time I can vouch for how childlike many of them still were at 16). We also listed other known 16 year-olds and those of unknown youthful age.

Nowhere in the essay did we make any moral judgement nor would we wish to have done so. To equate the acceptable social mores of 2018 and African tribal norms for 1879 would have been foolish. By the same token the political sensitivities of South Africa of 2018 should not stand in the way of historical truth. There is no nobility in savagery. The men of 1879 lived in an age of barbarism – which was still alive and kicking for most of the 20th century – and which is still prevalent today (think Kashoggi, Salisbury, Aleppo, Palmyra). It is disappointing that, despite the wealth of testimony by RELIABLE witnesses in DAYLIGHT, this subject is still not being given the serious consideration it deserves.

Aussieinkosi
If you read the Granger essay carefully you’ll see that the firing line incorporating the kraal wall in front of the 1/24th camp was an initial defensive position FROM WHICH the men fell back (either to flee like Granger or to take up a position in the rear of the camp for Durnford’s last stand).
The number of men down at the Manzimnyama doing their washing or bathing can only have been very small - my guess would be a dozen or so - men come off duty as vedettes and so on.
Finally, Granger does not mention Roberts.

When Black Returned to Isandlwana many months later did he or anyone with him mention anything about the remains of the so called drummer boys. No one else had been to Isandlwana
Surly Black or someone with him would have verified if the stories were true?

CTSG
As written above 9 members of the burial party gave eye-witness testimony re the treatment of the Boys incl. Capt. Symons 2/24th.
(Black's was a fleeting visit.)

Bonsoir,
Someone told me that Vol. V was out of stock.
In reality, Brecon Museum has 3 copies left in stock and will order more in the New Year.
Cheers
Frédéric

Hi Frederic
I actually checked the Brecon shop website just before Christmas , they did actually say VOL 5 was out of stock .
90th

Bonjour Gary,
It's a "mystery"...
Brecon Museum answered today that 3 copies are in stock.
Cheers
Frédéric

Hi Frederic
Probably the same as all shops , they never know exactly what's remaining in stock ! , even in this modern era of stock recording etc etc ! hahahahahahahahahaha , it is indeed a ' mystery ' .
90th

90th wrote:

Hi Frederic
Probably the same as all shops , they never know exactly what's remaining in stock ! , even in this modern era of stock recording etc etc ! hahahahahahahahahaha , it is indeed a ' mystery ' .
90th

What they need is SAP.......

90th
I was e-mailed by the museum yesterday to say it had 3 copies left, held in reserve, and to pass that on to any prospective buyers (try asking for Stephen Farish).
Happy New Year to you.
Julian

Thanks Julian .
90th .