Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:05 pm

Hi Smoko,

If you have it delivered to me, I could give it to you at iSandlwana.

JY

Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:29 pm

Hi JY
Thanks Mate , it's all good , I have a copy .
90th Salute

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:49 pm

Drury Lowe also mentions bodies that had been subjected to torture and other atrocities during his visit to isandlwana.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:41 pm

littlehand
Indeed he does. What Frederic and I wanted to prove was that first (in 'The Wrecked Camp') that the horrors of the battlefield was perfectly visible in the pre-dawn and post-dawn light to the rearguard companies and NMP (and by torchlight in the middle of the night) and secondly (in the 'Granger' essay) that there were contemporary eye witnesses to the fate of the Boys among the survivors, among the rearguard mentioned above, and among those who went to bury the dead. The first essay led to the second and the evidence we presented cannot easily be ignored, discounted or dismissed out of hand with bland phrases or claims of Grauelpropaganda.
All second-hand accounts, all hearsay, all accounts born of rumour were discounted in our presentations so we cannot be accused of simply repeating gossip.

Guest

A bit late... but this from an interview by former Driver Philip Rundles N/5 RA was published in the Western Mail 31st July 1934

"...the natives had not been content with merely killing their enemies but had mutilated their bodies afterwards. The regimental band, consisting mostly of youths, seemed to have been an object of special hate, for their bodies were literally chopped into little pieces.
The Zulus, Mr Rundles went on to say, apparently held the superstitious belief that the British would lose their courage if they lost their music..."

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:54 pm

Lee
I cannot find Rundles in the N/5 paylist/muster roll from 1879.
Are you sure you have the right name?

Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:26 pm

Julian & Lee
Rundles isn't on the Roll in Major P.E. Abbott's booklet on N Bty 5th Bgde .
90th

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:03 am

Lee
Might Rundles be a real name for a man on roll with a nom de guerre? Is there any indication in the letter that he was actually with LC's Reconnaissance? Does he mention any others' names?

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi 90th & Julian

Driver Philip Rundles was Royal Artillery 6th Brigade N Battery.

Salute

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:17 am

graves
Thanks but does the evidence you have indicate that he was in N/6 in January 1879? Later? I'm merely trying to establish where his remarks come from - hearsay? - burial party? - might he have transferred?

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Julian

Here is the article.

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Western Mail 31st July 1934

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Julian Whybra wrote:: graves
Thanks but does the evidence you have indicate that he was in N/6 in January 1879? Later? I'm merely trying to establish where his remarks come from - hearsay? - burial party? - might he have transferred?

Hi Julian

From his service record.

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agree

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:24 am

From his arrival date at the Cape that would suggest his memories are pretty much hearsay?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Note his name was Rundle not Rundles. And he was hospitalised at the Cape for much of March and April 1879, so definitely hearsay.

Steve

Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am

Plenty of inaccuracies in the Newspaper report .
90th

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:31 pm

And he sounds like a teller of tall stories to boot judging from the rest of the report.
Just the sort of thing that gives good historical research a bad name.
Good intentions Lee, but Mr. Rundle let you down.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:37 pm

All
As an additional piece of information on youngsters at Isandhlwana there were two privates (not Boys [but boys]) who were also very young:
25B/618 Pte. Leonard Henry Hankin 2/24th born Apr-Jun 1862 aged 16 at Isan. He lied about his age at enlistment on 17.7.75 saying he was 14 – in fact he was 13.
25B/619 Pte. George Walter Ghost 2/24th born Jul-Sep 1863 aged 15 at Isan. He lied about his age at enlistment on 16.7.75 by using the identity of a dead baby brother George (1861-2) and saying he was 14 – in fact he was 13 .

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Julian

I am not disagreeing with you on your above post.

But hindsight is a great thing. At the time they would have been known as Boys not boys.

Andy

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:56 pm

graves
I think you might have misread my post (perhaps I didn't word it clearly). The whole point of it was that these two did NOT have the rank 'Boy'.
On 22.1.1879 they were both 'Privates' - yet they were 16 and 15 (they had lied about their age)!

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:40 am

Sorry to be thick but......

Hankin and Ghost enlisted in the 24th, both aged '14' (but actually 13) I'm OK so far.....but they enlisted as Private and not 'Boy'.

If so, was there some kind of 'blind eye' policy when recruiting soldiers? Shouldn't they have been enlisted as 'Boy' and still be that rank at the age of 16?

Thanks

Simon

Posts : 615 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Simon,

In those days you did not have to produce your actual Birth Certificate (as post WW1) at enlistment. The judgement of age of the new recruit was in the hands of the Recruiting NCO.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:15 am

SRB
You misunderstood.
I wrote that on 22.1.1879 both Ghost and Hankin were listed in the Pay and Muster Rolls as Privates.
I did not write that they enlisted as Boy (rank). That was not recorded at enlistment. If they were Boys (rank) to start with, then they became Privates in due course.

The point I was trying to make was that when late in the evening of the 22nd or the early morning of the 23rd or when the visiting or burial parties returned to camp, men would have seen the mutilated, partly naked corpses of boys (under-aged youths). The assumption would have been they were Boys (rank) whereas we now know there were several other European boys (under-aged youths) in camp from Carbineers, to waggoners, to Boy Green, and now two 24th Privates.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:41 am

Julian Whybra wrote:: SRB
You misunderstood.
I wrote that on 22.1.1879 both Ghost and Hankin were listed in the Pay and Muster Rolls as Privates.
I did not write that they enlisted as Boy (rank). That was not recorded at enlistment. If they were Boys (rank) to start with, then they became Privates in due course.

Hi Julian

OK so at the time of enlistment, they could have enlisted as Boys.......

Was there a set age when a Boy would become a Private?

Thanks

Simon

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:52 am

Usually 17. But it appears there was flexibility in the regulations. Sensible. No EU directives or red lines then...!
The same principle of flexibility operated with the enlistment age.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Enlistment forms at the time do not ask for date of birth - just age at enlistment. So a pretty wide margin is possible.

Steve

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:04 pm

rusteze wrote:: Enlistment forms at the time do not ask for date of birth - just age at enlistment. So a pretty wide margin is possible.

Steve

If it was anything like my Gt Gt Grandfather - his age changed depending on how young his 'wife to be was'....and what he felt like telling the Census collectors.....I'm not talking about the odd couple of years either......its been a right nightmare to work him out....

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:14 pm

Forever young eh, SRB?

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:39 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:: Forever young eh, SRB?

Almost 'Peter Pan' like....... Very Happy

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:21 am

Or Dorian Grey...

Guest

Ok, here's another one for the mix...
A piece in the Manchester Evening News 26th July 1879 reported the death of Sergeant [Farrier] J Taylor 17th Lancers at Ulundi ;
"...It appears that his regiment and that of the First King's Dragoons were at Isandula two months after the disaster to the British troops, and as he had to take part in the burial of the dead, he witnessed many sickening sights. His description of the manner in which the dead bodies of the English soldiers had been treated by the savages is simply horrible. He says:- 'Some of the poor men had their brains knocked out, others their heads cut off, legs, arms and hands cut off, and there was not one man in Isandula but what had his bowels cut out. Some of them had their chests cut open and their heads thrust into their hearts. I saw two band boys, aged from 14 to 16 years, and from these the Zulus had taken their hearts and put them in their hands..."

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:40 pm

Thanks Lee. Fred and I used Taylor's quotation on p. 101 fn. 104.
But please...any additional ones you do find we'd be pleased to hear about!

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Just to say that Brecon has restocked with Studies in the Zulu war volumes I to V and these are now available for sale.

Posts : 5 Join date : 2019-02-21

Excellent. I just checked with them a few days ago and they said they were waiting.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:31 am

I was e-mailed on Friday by Brecon to say the re-stocking had arrived at the museum.

Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand

[quote="SRB1965" If it was anything like my Gt Gt Grandfather - his age changed depending on how young his 'wife to be was'....and what he felt like telling the Census collectors.....I'm not talking about the odd couple of years either......its been a right nightmare to work him out....[/quote]

Thanks for that Simon - gives me some encouragement!
My Zulu War ancestor also had a sudden age jump (downwards) at one point! I had begun to suspect it was because his new wife to be was only 19 and the parents (or she) would not approve. Could also have been because men over 30 were not allowed to enlist in the ABW unit he wanted to join. To make matters worse his place of birth also seemed to change at about the same time. Possibly related to a record in the archives naming him as an escaped prisoner ... soldier - prisoner, probably a fine line sometimes

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:09 am

Hi Steve,

Yeah - we are used to young people lying about their age to join up but it could equally be that someone above the upper age limit 'shaved' a few years off.

As far as census's went - people would come round and knock on your door and ask you the relevant details, that info would then have been transcribed by area/county (I have been told by some cases by prisoners and in later years overseas?) so there is plenty of scope for transcribers errors.

It is quite possible that someone did not know exactly when they were born, especially if they had no record of registration etc (we in the modern world fixate on dates, birthdays and ages - but I am not so sure about the past) - maybe (if born in the 1860's mid would say 1864, 65 or 66 depending on who they were talking to)

I am guilty of changing my place of birth from 'Tittensor' to 'Swinnerton' and back again - there's not a lot off difference and it will annoy my descendents researching our family tree.....

The 'Peter Pan of the Brown family' is equally flexible about his place of birth - over some miles - but in his defence I think he was in a workhouse as a child so may not have had too much knowledge of his origins.

good luck with your research

cheers

simon

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:14 am

Tittensor? Sime your kidding?

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:44 am

No Frank,

There was a 'ladies' & maternity unit there at Groundslow Hospital and in the 60's - all first time mothers (in our part of Staffordshire) were sent there......and my mum ended up there and I started off there....

cheers

Sime

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:26 pm

Im tempted to make comparisons between the name and the ladies in the maternity home but discretion must prevail. Rolling Eyes

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:30 pm

That was exactly why I changed it to Swynnerton..........

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