Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:32 pm

Differ or defer?

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 pm

That's John Keating

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 pm

Sorry spell check Defer

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:37 pm

Well, thank goodness for that...! I was preparing to gird up my loins for a 1200+ posting thread alias battle royal...!
Now you see why you need a bloody-minded, pedantic editor!

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:39 pm

Touche

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank Allewell wrote:: Fred Im not going to risk infringing on Julians essay, suffice to say we worked from similar areas. My long time objection is that there is NO evidence apart from a regimental note that says Anstey was where he was. For the rest I differ to the 'Studies'.

Cheers my Friend

As I wrote previously, interesting. Wink

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Julian

More Pisch Porsche.

Frank

Not bloody-minded. I found that the stiletto slips in between the ribs without any pain whatsoever, but then you find your words spread all over the carpet. The infuriating thing is that his version is always better.

Steve

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:58 pm

As I once said to you Steve, I have my theories, I work on them, I prove them to myself and im a happy man. But it takes a lot more than I can produce to get it of the factory floor into the merchandising section !

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

I didn't meet the same problem with the editor...
After reading your comments, I wonder now If I correctly understood the translation in English language... scratch

Fred

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:04 pm

Comme je vous l’ai dit une fois, j’ai mes théories, j’y travaille, je me les prouve et j’ai un homme heureux. Mais il en faut beaucoup plus que ce que je peux produire pour le faire entrer dans la section marchandisage!

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

I had in mind the rewriting work of the Editor...
Frank, your are too modest:
In the world of the edition, it is not necessarily a question of quality of work...

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Fred

How many cases of Burgundy did you send him?

Frank

I do sympathise. We are both a bit long in the tooth for English grammar.

Steve

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:29 pm

Yeah As in' Yesterday I couldn't spell Author, now I are one' !

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Steve,
One day I offered to send him French culinary specialties, he refused. The Man is incorruptible...

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:31 pm

Fred
English humour takes a lot for a foreigner to understand.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:33 pm

Anyway its getting close to the time when South Africa takes on the Welsh again, in Cardiff this time. Hope to hell the result isn't the same as 1879 Shocked

Just watching New Zealand team being completely ungentlemanly to the Italians, guests in the country as much pasta as they can eat and over 50 points to the good. No shame at all, tut tut.
Cheers

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian
I'm relieved, it's not just a translation problem!
Amitié
Fred

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank,
Can you tell us a little more on your work (for publication)?

Amitié
Fred

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:17 pm

164 pages
9 maps
3 schedules
23 photos.
Before editing that is, probably three paragraphs after editing Sad

In broad essence its an analytical look at all movements that took place on the Eastern Plain that affected the battle.
Very Happy

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Frank,
Thank you very much. Actually, there are also a lot of "dark corners" on this subject.
Amitié
Fred

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:54 am

Morning Fred, Corners are only dark till you shine a light. agree

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour Frank,
I have an obsessive interrogation on the subject (actually without answer); Through your messages on the forum, I know that it was also the case for you. I will see if you have found the answer... Wink

Amitié
Fred

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:16 am

I believe I do have a solution Fred, wrong or right? that's going to be up to the individual. Notice I deliberately said a solution, not the answer.
Regards
agree

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonsoir Frank,
when the testimonies are absent, it seems to me that a "solution" is valid when it fits perfectly into the overall picture; I suppose that it's the case.
Kind regards
Fred

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:46 pm

Fred
Technically, without any evidence, that's a hypothesis. It would have to be tested to death (to see whether it might or might not lead to a solution). When new evidence turns up it can then be tested against it to see whether it requires adjustment or should be maintained/rejected/accepted.
Such a hypothesis could be a case of 'filling in the gaps' which brings me back to Boolean logic!

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I think you may be frightening Mr Allewell to death. And I want to read his hypothesis/solution before acquiring a zimmer frame (that doesn't give you long!).

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian,
Point taken. I willingly accept your definition.
We will see if Frank had in mind a solution, an hypothesis ... or both!.
Fred

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:25 am

Fred its a Hypothetical answer to a solution.
One of my favorite quotes: 'An hypothesis is not an improved supposition, to which we give idle assent; but a means, or instrument, for gaining true knowledge. Isaac Taylor ( Rather famous for his work 'The Natural History of Enthusiasm')

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

So, you have tested to death your hypothesis for the construction of your hypothecial answer to your solution (this topic becomes difficult to understand). Very Happy

Fred

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:45 am

I must also say that having been through Frank's work a number of times in detail, it is excellent.
Once polished it will be a fine addition to the other essays in the 'Studies' series.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

You see Frank, just a little light buffing required!

Steve

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:16 am

I can feel the cold steel sliding in ! Suspect

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:35 pm

What? I haven't even fixed bayonet yet!

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:24 pm

Hi,

I have received my copy today and despite a worryingly amount of damage to the envelope, the book was unscathed.

Just got to try and get some peace & quiet and try to read it & let it sink in.....

Cheers

Simon

Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:47 am

Still waiting for mine to arrive , hopefully it survives the Journey ! Shocked

90th

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:59 am

This is one advantage of living in rainy, windy, miserable old Blighty......(that and no serious fires!)

Enjoy when it arrives!

Sime

Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:12 am

Correct in both Instances SRB1965 , let's not forget the once in a century storm Sydney had during the week killing 3 people , it's all happening over here ! , going to be a very bad summer for fires all over the country ...
90th

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:49 pm

Lots of sympathy for the folks in Queensland Gary, looks pretty rough up there.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:09 pm

My great-niece is due to land in Perth today. What's it like there?

Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:13 am

Julian it'll be nice and warm in Perth , won't be troubled by rain or fire , just heat if it decided to heat up , high 30's , lets hope it's only 30 or so for her . The Queensland area devastated by fire has now been hit by thunderstorms , at least they are hopefully putting out the fires . Going to be 36 here in Melb tomorrow , 38 frid Suspect

90th

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:17 am

Good, thanks, nice to be reassured by a 'local'.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Interesting and supportive comments on SAZW Vol. V by Mike Snook on the Victorian Wars Forum.

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Steve

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:54 pm

Some interesting (in my view) wording in places...."excellent at what he does"........not sure if that is praise.....or what......

I wonder why the Colonel wasn't tempted to publish WPS account himself and get one up on Mr Knight.......?

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

rusteze wrote:: Interesting and supportive comments on SAZW Vol. V by Mike Snook on the Victorian Wars Forum.

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Steve

Steve,
Thank you very much for the information given.
Amitié
Fred
I.E: The "yellow vests" ("gilets jaunes") successfully fought the "Christmas gift" concerning the increase of taxes on gasoline, electricity and gas, but nothing on customs officers between France and the United Kingdom (sorry).

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Fred

We also have our problems. The last BREXIT Secretary didn't realise that Dover was quite close to Calais.

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:44 am

Please...no Brexit discussions...absolute embargo called for!

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

The piece in SAZW Vol V on the band boys, and Snook's comments, have landed on the Ian Knight Facebook group. IK is not changing his mind!
Here's the main thrust (perhaps that's an unfortunate phrase).

Interesting to see myself called to account by Mike Snook on the Victorian Wars Forum for my 'poo-pooing' the idea that the 'band boys' of the 24th were mistreated by the Zulus at iSandlwana. I don't normally like to get involved in discussion forum wrangles - one minute you have a healthy exchange of opinions, the next minute it's Brexit - but as I respect Mike's views I think it's worth answering. Yes, I have seen the recent paper on the band 'boys', and to me the conclusions to be drawn are very different - good luck if you were trying to get a conviction in court on that evidence. I won't be admitting I'm wrong any time soon because I don't think I am; although I have always said there were probably boys in the camp at iSandlwana (voorloopers, servants, even mat-carriers for some of the NNC), and that the Zulus would have killed them with the rest the specific accusation - that under-age white boy-soldiers were singled out and subjected to inhuman treatment at the hands of the Zulus - cannot be substantiated, not least because the youngest 'boy' in the 24th killed there was 16. The stories of 'drummer boys hung up and gutted like sheep' grew out of the rumours which spread during the terrible night Chelmsford's men spent at iSandlwana, (which was so dark that one NNC officer tripped, fell over, and felt his hands go into something mushy - but could not see that it was the disembowelled corpse until someone held up a lamp) and were gleefully repeated afterwards by a press keen to play to the belief that the Zulus were savages. It's disappointing that, despite the wealth of contradictions within the various supposed eye-witness accounts (most of which is hearsay and who between them either picture the 'boys' hung up on butcher's hooks, tied to the back of a wagon, or 'tossed onto the assegais' - just think about the logistics of that for a moment, even if the 'boy' wasn't resisting) that this is still being given serious consideration.

Steve

Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:56 pm

I'm looking forward to reading members views on this when the copies of the essay have winged their way to the four corners of the globe or out from under JY's Christmas tree.....

Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:06 pm

All the evidence / reports I've ever read give the youngest Drummer Boy being 16 yrs of age that was killed at Isandlwana . Never seen a report , or record that quotes a Bandsman , or Boy , being KIA isandlwana in their early teens. If this evidence exists feel free to post it .
90th

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour Steve,
Again, thank you for the information given.

All,
Ian knight added :

"This was written a number of years ago (before the publication of 'Zulu Rising') and does not include a direct response to any recent publication; however, after considering recent arguments, I am not convinced and it remains broadly my position on the 'drummer boys';

‘GUTTED LIKE SHEEP’;
The Mystery of the ‘little drummer boys’ at Isandlwana
By Ian Knight"

So "Gutted like sheep" is still his "broadly" position on the subject (you can read it for example on Ian Knight Facebook group).

1°) One of the main argument given by Ian Knight is that the men who were with Chelmsford in the Mangeni were unable to see anything of the devastated battlefield between their return at isandhlwana the 22 january and before their departure towards Rorke's drift the 23 january.

For the readers interested by this specific subject, please take a look at the essay, "The wrecked camp at Isandhlwana: What the rearguard saw" ("Studies in the Zulu War" / Vol. IV).

2°) About the possibility of torture against men (not only "Boys") who belonged to the British force at Isandhlwana, please take a look at the essays,"An account of Isandhlwana by Trooper Walter Granger, Natal Carbineers" ("Studies in the Zulu War" / Vol. V).

Each reader is able to analyze the testimonies quoted in the three essays by himself: So, make your own opinion.

Good reading.

Cheers
Frédéric

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