Durnford's Level of Culpability

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 5:42 pm

Simon
I shall have to look up the details for you. It worked out at 2 waggons per company plus the canteen-cooks-supply waggon - Jackson's diagram on p. 15 of HOTS is accurate.

Posts : 58 Join date : 2022-09-02

"Being as was only a temporary camp"

That describes almost all of them, and Chelmsford instructions, so far as I know, did not
exempt these from precautions.

Bob

Posts : 58 Join date : 2022-09-02

I have read in some of these messages that the Martini-Henry carbines and rifles used different cartridges. I don't know enough about such details of those weapons to know. In the US when the
1873 Springfield was introduced to the army there was a rifle version and a carbine for the cavalry, but they had the same action and used the same cartridge with the only difference being that the carbine used less powder in the shell (50 grains, or a 45-50 cartridge it was called) so as to reduce the discharge kick for soldiers firing while mounted, and the fully packed cartridge held 70 grains of powder (the 45-70 cartridge is was called), but it was the same cartridge. I have a 73 carbine with an 1874 serial number -- I'll fire just two or three rounds and I get a black and blue bruise on the shoulder.

Bob

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 8:55 pm

BobTiernan wrote:: "Being as was only a temporary camp"

That describes almost all of them, and Chelmsford instructions, so far as I know, did not
exempt these from precautions.

Bob

Hi Bob,

The quote above was I reference to the location of waggons, in particular the supply waggon..

However Lord C was with the Centre Column and he made no reference or attempt to take precautions....was there a camp with Lord C present that he fortified, since entering Zululand?

To opposite - he actively dissuaded commanders from taking precautions, in that Bashe Valley.

I'm not sure how we square that circle?

Cheers

Simon

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 8:58 pm

Hi bob

What I believe was said was that the MH carbine and rifle (and Swinburn Henry carbine) used the same ammunition at this time and the low load red patched carbine rounds did not arrive until March.

Cheers

Simon

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:00 pm

SRB1965 wrote:: Re Durnfords Waggons

One thing to consider in the Durnford Ammo situation was that any Martini ammo could have been used by the Martini Henry and Swinburn Henry Carbines.

In fact in the opening stages of the AZW carbine ammunition was not available - it seems that the red patched carbine (lower load) ammo was a 'new' innovation.

According to Neil Aspinshaw (on the old Rorkes Drift forum) -

The reality is that to fire a rifle round in the carbine is unpleasant, but not overtly bad. The variance in recoil means you have to hold onto the carbine a little more as it jumps about a bit.

I doubt though in the opening stages of the AZW that the carbine load was actually available. Most of the ammunition would have been circa 1876-77 manufacturing dates.

Cheers

Sime

Subject: Durnfords level of culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 11:55 pm

Hi Frank
Just to clarify Mate Ian K has never stood on the bridge and said this was the position where they defended the Donga , Rob Gerrard had them on the ' other side of the current road ' !! , I didn't think so , as I wrote yesterday unfortunately with limited detail , near the Medical centre....I should've clarified was 150 - 200 metres south of the said Medical centre. Did
you watch us against the Kiwis ? ....that was a match for the Ages ! , where would one start in summary !? . Very Happy

.
90th.

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 4:53 am

Morning Gary
Never mentioned Ian at all mate. I would dispute the south of the medical centre. Mainwaring has an exact measurement, puts it in front, North, of the centre. I am aware of the positioning south and the tell tale marks but there is no guarantee that was the original track. As I pointed out the track has moved back and forwards many times. The fact that spent ammo was found in that location ( I have some) again only shows the line stretched that far.
Have to go with the measurements taken in September 1879.
Couldnt believe the tension on the field between Aussie and the Kiwi teams, brilliant display by both. The top 4 are going to be forces to be reckoned with. after winning the Rugby world cup last night, thoughts are daring to turn to the double! Shocked

Posts : 58 Join date : 2022-09-02

SRB,

EVen though the Central column had only just entered Zululand itself when it cross the
Buffalo, colonials felt that even camps on the west side should be fortified to some extent.
I'll stick with just the camps in Zululand itself.

Morris makes the case that although Chelmsford wanted laagering if entrenching was not done
he knew there was no time to do this at every camp and that proper picketing would or should
provide enough warning of any approaching Zulus to allow time for deploying for defense. He's
right, more or less.

He also mentions that regimental wagons (and presumably those of colonial units) were behind the
tent areas, just as Jackson shows on his camp layout sketch. I will never say that all of the other wagons or even most of them should have been brought into an arc in front of the camp, but a number of them could have been. And like I said, it may be that because this was felt to be
inconvenient, Chelmsford lost over 1,500 men and had to start over again four months later.

Bob

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:22 am

SRB
There was no camp constructed/fortified by Glyn's column on the Zulu side of the river in the first invasion.

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:22 am

Julian Whybra wrote:: SRB
There was no camp constructed/fortified by Glyn's column on the Zulu side of the river in the first invasion.

Thanks Julian,

It was more of a rhetorical question to reinforce my PoV that despite Lord Cs instructions - nothing was done to implement defences in his own column.

Maybe I should wrote it as a statement.

Thanks

Simon

Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:24 am

SRB
It's OK! Just as well to be clear!

» Col Durnford's demise
» Durnfords retreat.
» Durnford sent troops out for ammunition