Thomas William george 58th regiment 1880’s SA

Hi, I have just joined the group and hope this question is appropriate.
In doing some family research I found one of my gg grand parents was in S Africa during the 1880’s.
Unfortunately ancestry, the geanealagist and family search don’t appear to have any military records on Thomas William George and it is only through knowing his daughters were born in South Africa and one of these has a birth record in 1882 at fort Napier withe Thomas registered as in the 58th regiment.
I know he married in Kent but the marriage certificate doesn’t provide age or location of birth so am really struggling to clarify how he and his family got to SA, when he joined up, when he left and what he did during his service.
He appears to have died by 1891 census as his wife and kids are back in England and she is widowed but if this was war related or not is hard to tell.

Any guidance on how to find more details on Thomas William George would be appreciated
and any info on why his family were there and what they did during this posting would really help.
Thanks for any help you can provide Al

Good evening Al, welcome to the forum.

I've just had a very quick look through Dutton's Medal Roll for South Africa 1877-8-9 and can't find anyone in the 58th by the surname George - I'm assuming then that he went out to S.A. after the Zulu War?

Regards,

Tim

Thanks Tim for the info, like a lot of the military in my family their actual service records are hard to pin down if still available. I know the first child was born in Kent 1877 just after marriage and the next known child born in Cape Town 1880, so hard to say for sure when they left uk and arrived in SA.
I take it that no medal means no combat even if in the country at the right time but would this also mean that regiments were not replaced when members died and they lost combat strength but new recruits were sent out to fill ranks as and when needed, if so can these replacements be tracked in any way?

Cheers Al

Hi Alstar
I also looked through the Forsyth Roll for the 58th Regt in SA for 1877-78-79 , no-one with the Surname George . No Medal would've meant you weren't there , everyone who was in SA for the Campaign received a Medal , these were date clasped , if you crossed the Border into Zululand you received the 1879 Clasp to the Medal , if you stayed in Natal your Medal didn't have the Clasp , not being involved in a Battle had nothing to do with not receiving a Medal
90th

I have a Private T. George serving in the 1st (King’s) Dragoon Guards.  It is not beyond the realms of possibility that he might have been one of the K.D.G.’s who remained in South Africa, after the regiment departed.  Therefore it is plausible that he might have been carried on the books of the 58th (Rutlandshire) Regiment, subsequently the 2nd Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment.

JY

Hi All
Unfortunately not Zulu War but did serve in the First Boer War 1880-81.
B.Bermondsey London 1847 mothers name Seaman. Married 18 Oct 1876 at St Paul's Sandgate Eliza Twiggs aged 22 [b/c 1854] he is a clerk living in Hythe Kent. Fathers name Thomas Hunt George, her father John Twiggs Military Tailor.
Attested 24 Dec 1867 aged 20, to 4 Battalion 60th Rifles 26th Dec 1867, occupation Clerk, [strange that the marriage says clerk and not Soldier] No.1952 to the School of Musketry Hythe until 27 July 1880, to 58th Regt No.2382, Tried at least 3 times and reduced in rank. To South Africa 20 Feb 80 to 14 Sept 1885, in PMBurg 1 April 1880, and again 2 Aug 1881 to 12 Aug 1881 Hospital, Cape Town 13 Oct 1884, medical board Hong Kong 17 July 1886 to Netley UK medical board found unfit 22 oct 1886 final discharge 2 Nov 1886. He was buried At Cheriton Kent on 26 Feb 1888. The only other thing i found was on the 1901 census Eliza was a widow working as a General Domestic Servent at 'The Nook' Sandgate.
Rai KLH

Sorry John i also picked up on the Dragoon.

Well done Rai.

JY

He might have been at Fort Northampton not far from Rorke's Drift on the otherside of the river. Coursously, there was Military Tailor - Charles Twiggs in the 2/24th - 2/24/2407 who was at RD just after the battle.

Hi All
I think Kenny cracked the family link to the Zulu war, it is a assumption, but Sgt Charles Twiggs 2/24 No.2407 [Tailor according to Holme] could well be the son of John Twiggs Military Tailor above, John was born in 1825 Leicester, Marries Charlotte, when he was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery, they had at least 9 children, Charles being the first born 1845 in Sileby Leicester, it is quite a coincidence that Charles 2/24 is also a tailor he attested 14 Feb 1873 and was discharged 13 Feb 1885. There is also E Twiggs 2/24 Pvt No.1479, and John and Charlotte had another son Edward born 1850. unfortunately no service papers exist for the two 2/24th men.
One spanner in the works is that Charles appears on the 1881 census as a Tailor [probably working with his father] in Sandgate Kent he could well have been in the military reserve by this time so would not have been a serving soldier. Charles dies 27 march 1922 and was buried in Grange Road and Woodland Road Cemetery Gillingham Kent, entry No.4329, burial section C H number 894 [con].
I have assumed a lot but all seems feasible.
Rai KLh

Interestingly, former Sgt Charles Twiggs attended the SWB Old Comrades Club second gathering held at Lower Barracks, Chatham over the weekend of 9-10 April 1910 along with a number of former AZW veterans. This suggests that he did not have to travel far. There is a ceremonial silver topped cane awarded to Charles Twiggs in Aldershot in 1875 on display in the Brecon Museum.

Sorry for lack of response, I assumed that I would be notified when any posts were made.

Thank you all for providing your expertise and clarifying a lot of missing details especially the clarification of which of the ancestry records was correct.

I found a birth record for Bertha George born in fort Napier which is where I got the Twiggs maiden name of the mother Eliza and the regiment details of the 58th but couldn’t for the life of me find any other mention of the 58th anywhere which is where I got stuck.

Eliza’s father having been artillery was as you say a tailor in Sandgate near hythe Kent next to the military camp which is where their first son Thomas Willian hunt George was born, but I hadn’t even considered his children (twiggs)had also been out there at the same time.
I was wondering why so many of this side of the family were military as Alfred galley royal artillery marries Charlotte George ( the other daughter born in SA) who had returned to the Sandgate area after her dads discharge/ death, and being from a military family was not put off marrying an artillery man like her grand dad.

It seems in my family the artillery men survive longer than infantry, is this the norm or just pot luck?

Thanks again everyone for all the help I don’t think I could have found half these details on my own.
Regards al

To clarify some of Rai's assumptions, which I believe to be on the ball:

25B/2407 Charles Twiggs is listed in the recruits section of the 2/24th Jan-Mar Quarter 1873 (WO16/4153) enlisted at Shorncliffe aged 28 yrs, with the 2/9th Regiment. There is a comment saying "enlisted as Master Tailor"

Promoted to Sgt 24/07/1873 and served with the 2/24th until returning to England 21/04/1880. The Medal Roll lists him as Army Reserve, with an entry in WO 16/2915 Gosport Discharge books Folio 282 stamped as page 567/8 shows: Single, Class of discharge: 6 yrs service. Character: V Good. 2 Good Conduct badges, from Gibraltar on SS Wye? At Netley from 1st to 15th May 1880 to Army Reserve address: Sandgate.

Bill

Thanks bill for clarifying how Charles could have served and still been on two consecutive censuses as a tailor. It’s fascinating how some some people seem to be able to do short terms and you wouldn’t even know unless you check the military registers.

Thanks again for all the info, can I just ask as a novice to all this research where are you getting all the military info? Are some bits available through ancestry or other online search facilities or are you going to Kew or some other repository.

I am setting of down a path of research that seems to have many military persons in it but some have total service records others I can’t even find any service record at all so would appreciate any advice you feel happy to provide on how best to approach those persons without clear service records.

Regards al

Hi rai, thanks for all the details on Thomas George, sorry for the follow up as you have already provided such a full picture of his service but am I able to look up these same details as a novice if so where are they located as I would be interested to clarify if he was just not cut out for military life hence the issues and demotion, whether it was due to having his family with him as I imagine the pull between service and family in those conditions to be pretty difficult to manage and finally if there is any indication of being wounded or catching some disease that caused the short service/ discharge and then rapid death.
Any advice appreciated on how to research these individuals further.

Regards
Al

Alstar,

Most of my research is at Kew, the pay and muster lists and a host of other stuff are in the War Office (WO) series of documents. The National Archive website is a good place to start, click on "Browse the Catalogue" and it will open up a huge number of options.

Typing "War Office" should give you the index of what's in there. It can be a bit daunting but most comes under "Records of Other Administrative Departments of the War Office"
WO 10 Covers Royal Artillery pay-lists 1708-1878
WO 11 Royal Engineers 1816-1878
WO 12 Infantry and Cavalry 1732-1878
WO 13 Militia & Volunteers 1778-1878
WO 16 Covers the above from 1877-1898 with different sections for each arm of service.

Another useful one is the WO 25 Series found under "War Office and predecessors: Secretary-at-War, Secretary of State for War, and Related Bodies, Registers"

Pension/service records are under WO 97 series but I don't think they are physically available to look at anymore at Kew.

They have been digitised and are available from Ancestry/Findmypast obviously you need an account and some may only be available in the "premium" memberships. Your local library may have an account which you can use. Though I have accessed Findmypast through the TNA website and searched that way for free.

Hope this helps,

Bill

PS. Just to clarify most short service records have not survived, they received no pension so there was no requirement to keep them. If it is a WW1 soldier, don't forget only about 1.5 out of 7 or so million records survived destruction by bombing in WW2.

Bill,
Thanks for the advice, this clarifies a lot, I had looked at the Kew archives on line previously but as you say there is a daunting array of options available I was assuming that getting no results was down to entering incorrect information or using the wrong register.
Now I know how few records have survived I will adjust my outlook accordingly.
I found the library version of ancestry a good free source but limited for the records I sought but that could also be down to me entering data incorrectly so I am now in a better situation to root out what might be left and am looking forward to what ever other unexpected family history details I uncover.

Thanks for taking the time to offer very useful advice.
Regards al

Hi All,
I mainly use online sites.
British Newspaper Archive, You have to Pay.
Deceased on line, Another pay site.
Findmypast, Pay site.
Free BMD, birth marriages death, Free.
GSSA South African Archives, Free.
Findagrave, Free.
Billiongraves, Pay site.
These are the main sites, i have also used peerage.com, Free, a number of South African websites some free some payable, Kentarcheology free, a number of monumental inscription sites some payable but mostly free, WW1 websites, this list could go on for ever?
Rai KLH

Just to mention that there are occasional gaps in the Ancestry records. Don't rely on transcriptions (because these are often poorly done), but try to view the original.
Also there used to be in the General Registry of Births, Marriages and Deaths, separate volumes covering, Births Abroad, Deaths Abroad, Marriages Abroad, Births Deaths and Marriages Overseas in HM Forces from 1791, and occasional volumes for B, D, M in some British possessions overseas. These were not bought up by Ancestry and are not on-line (with a few exceptions). The only access to them now is through looking at the original volumes at Kew.

Thanks everyone for the great advice, guidance and personal information on my family members.
It has opened a lot of possible future research projects I hadn’t considered before which is always interesting so I appreciate the time taken by everyone to research my family members and answer my queries, you seem to have created a very positive, resourceful community here which is always a pleasure to encounter.

Regards al