Crealock's notebook.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:28 pm

It was written on 19th Feb - a month after the battle. You only have to read through some of the colonial papers from this period to see what rumours were flying around. Yes, and to impress his uncle and aunt too. He begins by wanting some sympathy...and then he was in a battle too!...poor lamb, send him some writing paper and a cake...! Or am I becoming inventive?

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:32 pm

Thanks Julian. Just rumours then that form the basis of the "information" in his letter. Salute

And no, don't go getting all inventive on us!

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: DB
One day I'll introduce you to him. He did most of his research between 1950 and 1965 and tracked down children, nephews and nieces, and grandchildren of the participants. He has a mine of personal anecdotes you won't find anywhere else.

[quote]Bonsoir Mister WHYBRA,

I hope Mr jackson will publish one day these "families fragments" of the battle of Isandhlwana...
Should the opposite occur, they will be lost for ever...
Cheers

Frédéric

In French (sorry "Admi" but iam not sure for the translation):
J'espère qu'un jour M. JACKSON publiera ces "fragments de mémoire familiale" de la bataille d'Isandhlwana.
Dans le cas contraire, ils seront perdus à jamais...
Cordialement

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:53 am

I don't think he will. I try to vacuum up as many of these as I can whenever I see him.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: I don't think he will. I try to vacuum up as many of these as I can whenever I see him.

Quote :

Hello Mister WHYBRA,

Do you go to publish the testimonies collected by Mister JACKSON?
regard

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:10 pm

No, I would not do that. I do include individual ones with his permission where relevant in publications and articles.
An example is in England's Sons, Section M, No. 28 (F).

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: No, I would not do that. I do include individual ones with his permission where relevant in publications and articles.
An example is in England's Sons, Section M, No. 28 (F).

[quote]
Mister WHYBRA,
Thanks for you answer.
Regrettable situation for the "Hystory", for the "memory" of the zulu people...
I don't have my copy of England' sons with me. This evening, i will search section M, n°28
Regard

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:26 pm

28(F)

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: 28(F)

[quote]

(smile) Yes, 28 (F).
Sorry .

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:53 pm

Wouldn't it be nice if someone were to interview Mr Jackson and record it as a documentary and post it on the forum?
DB14? Just a suggestion!

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:15 pm

I should say that at the moment FWDJ is very poorly but recovering from an operation in hospital.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:33 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:: I should say that at the moment FWDJ is very poorly but recovering from an operation in hospital.

Please wish him a speedy recovery and send him the regards, admiration and respect of this forum's members Julian.
I have no doubt that all members of this forum will want you to do that on their behalf if you are in contact with Mr Jackson.
Salute

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

tasker224 wrote:: Please wish him a speedy recovery and send him the regards, admiration and respect of this forum's members Julian.

Subject: Crealock's Notebook Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:04 pm

Hi Tasker .
Agree 100 % .

Julian .
Please pass on my / our best to FWDJ .

90th.

Subject: Crealock's Notebook . Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:11 pm

Julian .
Once FWDJ has fully recovered do you think it would be a good idea for him to do an interview him ?, As his thoughts and knowledge would be remarkable in the least . I'm sure he's found many other interesting facts / Titbits etc , which more than likely are not in his publications . Would this be the case ? . Would FWDJ be receptive to this idea ? .
Cheers 90th.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

tasker224 wrote:: Wouldn't it be nice if someone were to interview Mr Jackson and record it as a documentary and post it on the forum?
DB14? Just a suggestion!

[quote]

Hi all,

I had hoped that this person was Mister WHYBRA: a discussion between two friends is good for trust and confidences: inevitably a great book or a good interview!
Regard
Frédéric

Subject: Crealock's Notebook Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:19 pm

Hi Ymob.
I agree 100 %. Would certainly make an informative story or interview , no doubt about that .
Cheers 90th. Salute

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

tasker224 wrote:: Please wish him a speedy recovery and send him the regards, admiration and respect of this forum's members Julian.

Mister Julian,

The same thoughts.
I apologize for my last post, it's not the best moment to make a joke.

Avec mes sincères excuses.

Frédéric

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

Extract from the Cape Argus. Jan 25th it odd to see, 3 days after the battle, it states in the news paper, " Strengthen" the camp.

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Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:36 pm

Ulundi
This is a newspaper report! This is not the wording from an order. This is just a newspaperman's use of the English language describing what he thought happened (unless he somehow had a hotline to Chelmsford and was party to his campaign plans and orders).

Subject: Crealock's Notebook Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:11 pm

Hi Julian .
Agreed , but the perplexing thing about the article is the fact that they have known ( Guessed ) that Durnford was directed to the camp in the first instance . I know nothing of the Newspapers in Sth Africa but wouldnt the Cape Argus be from the Western Side of Sth Africa , many many miles from the Eastern side where the conflict had taken place ??. I'd imagine it would take a lot more than 3 days for them to have received any information regarding Durnford's movements !. Possibly the date is incorrect , how could they have known Durnford was orderd to the camp as he indeed was ! . Well and truly happy to be corrected . scratch

90th.

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

I know. I'm just pointing out that the word "Strengthen" was used back then, as there are some sources that say Durford was told to "Strengthen" the camp.

Subject: Crealock's Notebook Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:25 pm

Hi Ulundi .
We have been debating the ' Strengthen ' point for a long time , as you are no doubt aware ! . The only thing you should concern yourself with regarding that point is the word Strengthen WAS never issued in the orders . What I'm trying to say is
that ' Strengthen ' was used by those who were never there or had anything to do with the camp in the first place . Forget the word Strengthen , it simply doesnt exist in the orders , it's plain if you followed the debate , the word was never used by those who were said to have used it ! . Hope you can follow this . scratch

Cheers 90th.

Subject: Crealock's notebook. Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:59 pm

Spot on 90th.

Durnford was also never ordered to take command, reinforce, strengthen, assist, help, or hold Pulleines hand. He was also never ordered to stay at the camp, he had been instructed to move up to the camp so that he could be nearer to Chelmsford, this was so that he could carry out his orders of the 19th and assist Chelmsford in his attack against the zulus (Matyanas).

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:35 am

90th
You are right about the Argus. The reporter would not have known that D was ordered to the camp. He did know he died there along with his men and like every other reporter assumed that he must have been told to go there - why else would he be there?
Martin is right. One shouldn't be concerned with what is not written in the orders, but with what is; after all, that's all D had to go on!

Subject: Crealock's Notebook Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:47 am

Hi Julian
What I find hard to comprehend is how the Argus reporter knew Durnford was to go to the camp in the first place ? . What if Durnford was with No3 Column when they crossed the river on the 11th Jan , and had stayed with the column all the time , In that scenario , there wouldnt be a need for Durnford to be called to the camp , as he would've already been there from day one of the invasion ? . Unless of course L. Chelmesford's plans of the Invasion were plastered all over the newspapers as far away as the Cape Argus , stating Durnford was with his No2 Column stationed at Middle Drift or was to make his way to RD and would be called up at a later date ! . Also how could they have known in only 3 days what happened on the other side of the Continent ? . I'm thinking the dates are incorrect ! .
90th.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:22 am

I see 90th's points. Even if the news of the camp's (and D's death at the camp) had travelled all that way in 3 days, the journo still knew that Durnford had ARRIVED at the camp after it had been established but before it was attacked. The journo must have got his info from a witness, such as a man like Hamer for example.
Could one of the escapees have carried on riding all the way to the Cape Argus offices? I think there must have been a signalling system? Was there really no way of messaging across colonies in 1879? In 1588 when the Spanish Armada was first spotted in the English Channel, news was signalled to Londan and orders were signalled back again and down to Plymouth in a matter of a few hours.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:56 am

Davies and Stafford and one other (I'll have to look him up, Sparks I think, who actually got there first) rode to Pietermaritzburg getting there at 7 a.m. on the 24th. The news would have been telegraphed from PMB to Durban and thence to Cape Town in time for the Argus to publish on the 25th. Isn't technology wonderful?

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:59 am

Julian Whybra wrote:: Davies and Stafford and one other (I'll have to look him up, Sparks I think, who actually got there first) rode to Pietermaritzburg getting there at 7 a.m. on the 24th. The news would have been telegraphed from PMB to Durban and thence to Cape Town in time for the Argus to publish on the 25th. Isn't technology wonderful?

Thanks for clearing that up Julian Salute

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Good to see Julian doesnt dismiss the newpaper arttical at the first obstacle. 90th check all avenues before claiming misprints, and in this case the wrong date,because it doesn't fit in with your way of thinking. I'm starting to see Julian in another light, as I have just spent the last week going over some of his comments. Perhaps we should all take a leaf out of his book, and research before posting.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:49 pm

90th
It was Sparks. Though nothing was actioned until Stafford/Davies (colonial officers and upright Natalian citizens) arrived.

CTSG
A newspaper article is a newspaper article. It can't just be dismissed but it must be taken in context and, of course, for what it is, just a newspaper report. Re Isandhlwana I never dismiss any primary source. That wouldn't be an analytical methodological historical approach. I always try to research properly before posting because you are all swift to chide and slow to bless. If I can't and write from memory, then I say so, and others can act or think appropriately.
If your last comment is a compliment, then I take it as such, and in your case I feel I have earned it. Thank you.

Tasker
I don't think FWDJ would be receptive to the idea - the anecdotes are all too disparate - not enough people would want to buy the book. One particularly moving anecdote I recall came from Anstey's family and concerned how the news of his death was broken to his family - but this needs to told in speech, not in writing.

Subject: Crealock's Notebook Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:22 pm

Hi CTSG.
I dont want to be seen as being precious but I didnt say or intimate that it was a misprint in any way !. Also I didnt claim factually the dates were incorrect , I said I was thinking that was the case , so there is a bit of difference . Yes , one should always attempt to research to some level before posting , shouldnt we ? . Salute

Julian .
That certainly makes sense , as the Argus reporter had to have been told of Durnford's move to the camp . As I said the reporter wouldnt know this was the case , although Durnford was killed there it didnt mean he was ordered there , as he could have been with LC from the outset on Jan 11 th . Thanks for clearing this up .
cheers 90th.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

But by them printing the word " Strenthen" must have come from somewhere.

90th I stated "misprint " as an example of what you have used before. But in this case I did state what you are stating incorrect date.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:22 pm

CTSG
The reporter also used the words
"directed"
and
"the force at the camp under Colonel Durnford".
But they don't mean anything either.
It doesn't even say that D was ORDERED to strengthen the camp. Read it. It introduces a sentence by saying "To strengthen the camp...". It is purely padding and journalistic licence. I'm afraid it doesn't mean anything - and CERTAINLY not on the 25th January! And it came from the reporter's pen.
You really are barking up the wrong tree hear CTSG, if you are barking. Perhaps you're just gently growling.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:22 pm

Like all good hacks, then and now, they conjecture, they create, they invent, they make it up!
The word "strengthen" is absent in all orders relevent to Durnford and the camp.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Quote :: It introduces a sentence by saying "To strengthen the camp...". It is purely padding and journalistic licence. I'm afraid it doesn't mean anything

But it has been discussed in the past that Durnford was told to Strengthen the camp.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Tasker.
Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:22 pm
Like all good hacks, then and now, they conjecture, they create, they invent, they make it up!
The word "strengthen" is absent in all orders relevent to Durnford and the camp.

Quote :: Clery. " The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp,

Perhaps it is you, who should be reading up on the subject, instead of telling others too.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:53 pm

CTSG
You wrote:
"But it has been discussed in the past that Durnford was told to Strengthen the camp. "
It has not been discussed in the past within any historical context.
The words 'told to strengthen' appear in no order, message, suggestion, instruction. To the best of my memory's ability they appear in no account (from a person in authority who would have had access to the same orders, etc., and would be in a position to know) relating to events immediately prior to or after the battle.
They occurred in someone's posting as a word unattached to any contemporary document.
Look back and see for yourself.

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Julian Whybra wrote:: They occurred in someone's posting as a word unattached to any contemporary document.

I'm confused. Isn't CTSG quoting something Clery said after the battle? Is sounds like it might be testimony, but as usual, it is not attributed so I'm not sure of the context.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:04 pm

As I said, to the best of my memory's ability...I can't remember every line ever published though I'm fairly certain it is not in anyone's testimony at the CoI...
Find the quotation and let's see it in context.
It certainly does not appear in any order, etc.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:30 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: check all avenues before claiming misprints, and in this case the wrong date,because it doesn't fit in with your way of thinking.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and cease making claims that are patently untrue, in order to fit in with YOUR way of thinking.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

CTSG

The order didn't say strenthen or take command, end of story !

Cheers

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

End of your story for you perhaps. if you don't what to discuss, then concentrate on the other discussions.

Subject: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:23 pm

Julian made a great point in an earlier post.

"One shouldn't be concerned with what is NOT written in the orders, but with what IS".

It is well known that Crealock and Clery threw in 'Red Herrings' (LIES), to cover their own and Chelmsford's backsides and put the blame on Durnford.

You don't have to be an Albert Einstein to understand all this, just read the orders.

As I said in an earlier post, there is no mention in Dunford's orders to, take command, reinforce, strengthen, assist, help or hold Pulleine's hand, and he was NOT ordered to stay at the camp.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Martin. Can you show how you have come to this conclusion. And how they lied.

Quote :: It is well known that Crealock and Clery threw in 'Red Herrings' (LIES

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Crealock stated that he had told D to take command at Isandlwana, when in fact all he had said was to march to this camp, when he found his order book with the copy of the order in he didn't come forward and state that he had been wrong.

Clery, not sure how he lied, L and Q were wrong about him calling him a lier.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:15 pm

That's always been the problem. To many being called liers without foundation. And members saying that how is was, again without foundation.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

LH

Crealock was a proven lier, Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill called Clery a lier without reashering properly, they stated
that there is no evidence that Pulleine was given written orders, but Stafford clearly states in his account that Pulleine not only had written orders but he also handed them to Durnford.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:52 pm

And when did Strafford gives his account.

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:40 am

littlehand
1929. But it's the sort of detail that Stafford would have no reason to invent and it's the sort of thing might have stuck in his mind...a polite disagreement...these are my orders...going to fetch them and handing them to Durnford...Durnford peruses them...a few men in a tent...a tense situation...and all remembered in the light of what followed.
I'll check his earler accounts to see if he mentions the incident there.
Cochrane who was present throughout simply had this to say...

"Colonel Pulleine gave over to Colonel Durnford, a verbal state of the troops in camp at the

time, and stated the orders he had received, viz., to defend the camp; these words were

repeated two or three times in the conversation."

At the end of the day - verbal or written - the orders were the same.

» Colonel Crealocks letter