Crealock's notebook.

Probaly stepping well back. But I'm confused what order / notice did Durnford received on the morning of the 22nd. Just the order would be appricated.

24th wrote:

Martin. Can you show how you have come to this conclusion. And how they lied.

Quote :

It is well known that Crealock and Clery threw in 'Red Herrings' (LIES

It is not beyond human nature to twist the truth a little bit, in order to save one's own skin and that of the commander to whom one is loyal.
As I have stated previously, the testimony of those officers on LC's staff should be read with a hint of caution.

The whole point of the most widely discussed thread on this forum (now locked) and one of the most widely debated and central threads to the whole legendary story of iSandlwana, is the scapegoating of a dead officer, namely Durnford. An officer of senior rank, but not an officer of the unfortunate 24th Foot. An officer to whom Lord Chelmsford nor the British army need have much loyalty to. A perfect scapegoat.

Julian has shown that there were no written orders from LC to Durnford, ordering him to "take charge" of, "defend", "strengthen" the camp etc. Only to "go to" the camp. This gets Durnford off the hook, it exonerates Durnford's actions on the 22nd january 1879 and proves he was not to blame for the loss of the camp, as many have suspected for over 130 years.

Whatever Clery, Crealock et al stated after the event to the contrary, should be treated as selective confusion in the wording - at best.

Yes I understand this, and no doubt everyone else does. This is nothing new.

But many members have asked this question, and none have been given a direct answer. So hopefully I may get one.

Quote :

"Julian has shown that there were no written orders from LC to ordering Durnford to "take charge" of, "defend", "strengthen" the camp etc.

Then why did he take command of number 3 column?

Ray, he did not take command of no.3 column.

Ray have you read:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Read the orders for yourself, and judge the quality of the publication for yourself before forming your own conclusion. You are not going to believe what I or any other forum member tells you; and so you shouldn't!

As Julian said in an earlier post, you have to focus on what WAS written, not what wasn't

Quote:

"One shouldn't be concerned with what is NOT written in the orders, but with what IS".

No!!! Why do people rely on Julian. It's a simple question.

Quote :

As Julian said in an earlier post, you have to focus on what WAS written, not what wasn't

Its a basic order. "Move to the camp"

My question still remains. "Then why did he take command of number 3 column?

Because he was a senior officer to Pulleine, thats why !!

24th, LH.

It has been shown many times in many books and also many times on the forum that Crealock lied through his teeth about the orders.

Also Clery claimed that he had given Pulleine both written and verbal orders that said that Durnford had been ordered up to reinforce the camp, however, there is no mention of this 'reinforce the camp' by the witnesses who heard the conversation between Pulleine and Durnford, so the question arises, did he say that to implicate Durnford and cover Chelmsford's and his own backside?

Quote :

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Today at 1:41 pm
Because he was a senior officer to Pulleine, thats why !!

Thank you DB.

And it has been stated that Pulliene gave over his orders to Durnford.

Quote :

tasker224
Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:27 pm  
Ray, he did not take command of no.3 column.

He did. Look at DB reply above.

Ray
Crealock's orders to Durnford's appear in all the AZW histories and they are on this website several times if you look.
you wrote that it was a basic order - "Move to the camp" - but this was not the order and you confuse the discussion by saying it was.
Durnford took command of the camp, not Column No. 3, because he was the senior office present.
Lastly, I would hope no-one relies on me, but that instead they should check things for themselves (as they do frequently on this site). There is far too much reliance on what others have written about the AZW which is unsourced or not evidenced.
However, when I post, I would normally give the source and this does help sort out truth from untruth, fact from fiction. If I don't so annotate, then I say so.

Quote :

Also Clery claimed that he had given Pulleine both written and verbal orders that said that Durnford had been ordered up to reinforce the camp, however, there is no mention of this 'reinforce the camp' by the witnesses who heard the conversation between Pulleine and Durnford, so the question arises, did he say that to implicate Durnford and cover Chelmsford's and his own backside?

But it was pointed out by another member, that the actual order that was going to be sent to Durnford by Clery. Wasn't. Because Crealock was told to send it. It was Crealock who changed the order, not Chelmsford or Clery. As far as Chelmsford and Clery knew, Crealock had sent what Clery was ordered to send.

We all know that (though it would be more correct to say that Crealock worded the orders differently). What point are you trying to make?

Quote :

There is far too much reliance on what others have written about the AZW which is unsourced or not evidenced.

Totally agree.

Quote :

Durnford took command of the camp, not Column No. 3, because he was the senior office present.

Right that being established. Thank you. Tasker we have both learnt something

That said. Then Pulleines orders would have been binding on Durnford. Which as also be mentioned before. It seems to be a case of Durnford making a rod for his own back. If he hadn't taken command his movements might have been justified.

Quote :

Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Today at 1:59 pm
We all know that (though it would be more correct to say that Crealock worded the orders differently). What point are you trying to make?

None really , just trying to understand where the confusing set in. I'm looking at Crealocks interpretation of the ordered. If he had, as stated that he had written command, Durnford would have had some clear indication of what was expected of him, as he would had if he had received the actual order,to Strenthen the camp.

But if as stated he was following orders from the 19th Jan, then he should not have taken command.

Ray.

Read the orders for yourself and you will see that Durnford was NOT ordered to either take command, reinforce, assist, or help Pulleine, and that he was also NOT ordered to remain at the camp.

He had been ordered on the 19th to support Chelmsford in an attack on the zulus, the orders of the 22nd were for him to move up to the camp so that he could be nearer to Chelmsford to support him in that action.

When he arrived at the camp he would have expected to find further orders if there were any change to the orders of the 19th, however, there were no orders waiting for him at the camp. therefor the orders of the 19th were the ones which Durnford had to follow.

On his arrival at the camp, Pulleine said that he was sorry that Durnford had come to the camp, as he would now take over command, but Durnford replied that he would not interfere with Pulleine's command of the camp, and that he would not be staying.

Durnford was the senior officer with him being a Bvt Colonel and Pulleine being a Bvt Lt Colonel, and although he did not take command "officially", he would only be "technically" in command with him being the senior officer, so people may have "assumed" that Durnford had taken command of the camp, but he hadn't done so "officially", because he was to move from the camp to join up with Chelmsford and Bengough in an attack on the zulus as he was ordered to do on the 19th.

Pulleine was in command of the camp, Durnford was in command of his own independent No2 column, which was on its way to support Chelmsford.

[quote="Ray63"]

Quote :

Quote :

Durnford took command of the camp, not Column No. 3, because he was the senior office present.

Right that being established. Thank you. Tasker we have both learnt something

Thanks Ray, but I did know this!


And the "took command" was only in a technical sense and only for the brief duration of the time that Durnford was actually in the perimeter of the camp. Martin explains it perfectly well, above.

Quote :

and although he did not take command "officially",

As posted by Julian.
"

Quote :

Colonel Pulleine gave over to Colonel Durnford, a verbal state of the troops in camp at the time, and stated the orders he had received, viz., to defend the camp; these words were repeated two or three times in the conversation."

It's clear to see, that whatever orders Pulleine received in this case " Defend the Camp" we're handed to Col: Durnford.

Martin. You cannot take command un-officially.

I would be interested how you came to the conclusion, that Durnford was still carrying out his orders from the 19th. Is this based on primary, or personal opinion.

Tasker. This is what confuses the issue.

You state.

Quote :

Ray, he did not take command of no.3 column.

_________________
Life. Isn't it everything?

Right that being established. Thank you. Tasker we have both learnt something

Quote :

Thanks Ray, but I did know this!


And the "took command" was only in a technical sense and only for the brief duration of the time that Durnford was actually in the perimeter of the camp. Martin explains it perfectly well, above.

Posted by DB in a new thread.

Anyway I will use it in this thread as this is what I asked for in my original post..

Quote :

“You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column. Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorke’s Drift as ordered yesterday. 2/24, artillery & mounted men with the General & Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant.
J.N.C.
If Bengough’s battalion has crossed the River at Hands Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwana Valley).

”

The only bit that s of concern to Col: Durnford is high-lighted in yellow, nothing else applies to him regarding his movements.

Quote :

If Bengough’s battalion has crossed the River at Hands Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwana Valley).

Not sure if this is part of the original or added by DB.

If it is part of the original, it still isn't giving Durnford any direction to move anywhere other than the camp. If Durnford was required to assist Chelmsford, he would have made it clear, as he has here to "Bengough"

Ray, this is what we have been trying to explain for years.

Ray, no3 column was commanded by Glyn officially, LC effectively commanded it to all intents and purposes, as he was in charge of the whole campaign.

Most of no.3 column (about 2/3 of it) was out of the camp chasing what they thought to be the main Zulu impi, 10 miles to the East when the camp was attacked. Durnford was never at any point in command of no3 column!

When he enetered the camp, he was in command automatically, as was army protocol; but as Martin states clearly in his post above, Durnford never took over the running of the camp or the organising of its defences, he left that for Pulleine to continue with. There was no interference, seizing of control or command by Durnford in any sense, he left it to Pulleine; and rightly so. He simply checked in with the camp and then carried on, on his way.

Dave, I'm just look at this as a newby, to this subject. As I have highlighted in my post, what concerned Col Durnford. Anything other than him following

Quote :

"You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column"

can only be based on Speculation, Hind-sight, or personal preference. Unfortunately the order is very clear as to what was expected of him. He had nothing else to do apart from moving to the camp, if Chelmsford had meant for him to do anything else it would have said so in the order, or he would have received fresh at some point during the day.

Ray, Durnford DID march to the camp at once. He obeyed this order.
What was he to do once he had got there? (There were no further orders).

Posted by Littlehand.

Quote :

Durnford was theoretically senior. But he had been promoted into a colonial unit, even though he was a regular officer - and "colonials" were not accepted by the regulars as "senior" regardless of their apparent rank.

I have read posts where members are saying Durnford was senior and took command, as part of army protocol. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence to show the above to be incorrect.

Quote :

Tasker
Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:18 pm  
Ray, Durnford DID march to the camp at once. He obeyed this order.
What was he to do once he had got there? (There were no further orders).

"What he was supposed to do when he got there"
Not for us to question. We can speculate, and guess what he was supposed to have done, but that doesn't alter the fact regarding what he was told to do in the order primary source.

Quote :

"What he was supposed to do when he got there"
Not for us to question. We can speculate, and guess what he was supposed to have done, but that doesn't alter the fact regarding what he was told to do in the order primary source.

Welcome Ray. Another one who's see's the facts for what they are. It's the speculation by others that confuses this issue. Durnford had nothing else to do by move to the camp.

It was a rhetorical question Ray, Dave, but one which leads to a lot of further discussion and heated debate on the rights and wrongs of what Durnford did next.
But the point is, Durnford obeyed his final order.
And that is the end of that story. And the beginning of another.

Quote :

It was a rhetorical question Ray, Dave, but one which leads to a lot of further discussion and heated debate on the rights and wrongs of what Durnford did next.

But you can see how the confusion sets in. If the what did "Durnford do next" is a rhetorical question based on extending the discussion, well it certainly did that. But as for Durnford leaving the camp, that's another issue,as the order didn't make a mention of that. Basically Durnford took the fight to the Zulu in the open, knowing that the camp had no defensives what so ever. He threw a stone at the hornets nest and got stung..

Ray

He took the fight to the Zulus, he didn't know the camp would be attacked or that he was facing the main army !!



Cheers

Ray.

You are confusing yourself with this, let me see if I can help you to understand.

Chelmsford wanted Durnford and Bengough to form a two pronged pincer movement against the zulus, Chelmsford would be waiting in position to engage the zulus that Bengough and Durnford had flushed out towards Chelmsford, and between them they would destroy the zulus and force them to surrender. This is what the plan was, and Durnford's orders of the 19th were to carry out these orders. The orders of the 22nd were for him to move up to the camp, this was so that he could be closer to Chelmsford in readiness to carry out his orders of the 19th.

Glyn was a column commander, Pulleine was a Battalion commander. Glyn was in command of No3 column, so wherever Glyn was, that was No3 column. The portion of the column left behind was the camp at iSandlwana, and that was left under the command of Pulleine.

When I say 'officially' I mean that Durnford did not "take" the command from Pulleine, but with him being the senior officer he would be 'technically' in command because of him being the senior officer.


For instance, if I was a corporal in charge of drilling a few squaddies, and you were a sergeant who had orders to see the captain, but on your way to see the captain you came to me and my squaddies, you would then be the senior man, and therefor 'technically' in charge, but, if I said that I had orders to drill the squaddies, and you said that you were not going to interfere with those orders, then I would still be in charge of them although you were the senior man. Now if I was making a pigs ear of things, and you saw this and tried to assist me, but then we got hit by a group of terrorists and the whole lot of us got the chop, do you think it would be fair for you to get the blame?

DB we can't be nieve about this, we have to considered the amount of reports that had come during the morning. The Durford story would be different, if he had not left with his troops, as commander of the camp. He should have commanded from the camp head quarters. It was he who sent mounted troops to scout the area, it was his troops that came across the Zulu's. It was his troops that fired upon the Zulus. It was his troops that fled back to the camp pursued by the Zulu's.

You yourself say that the Zulus wound not have attacked until the 23rd had they not been attacked.

Quote :

You are confusing yourself with this, let me see if I can help you to understand.

Martin, sorry mate but i'll stop you there, I not sure you realise, but your help in helping people to understand, confuses the issue no end. ( No disrepect intended) All you need to do is read the order, not what you think the order represented. We must stick to the facts, however if you have anything to prove what you say, then please post. But to me the order is quite clear.

Ray, the final order expires the moment Durnford finds arrives at the camp as instructed, only to find no further orders at the camp.
He obeyed the final order there were then no further orders.
He then reverts to his previous order of the 19th that Martin outlines above.
This is corrrect procedure.
These are the facts!

Tasker. what did. Major Bengough’s battalion do after he revived his order.

Ray63 wrote:

Tasker. what did. Major Bengough’s battalion do after he revived his order.

Ray, I am not seeing the relevence of your question.

The information Durnford received regarding Major Bengough's movements, is quite clear for all to see in the Durnfords order. Major Bengough’s instruction clearly shows what was required of him. Durnford being ordered to the camp is clear and concise.

To me Durnsford's order to move to the camp, puts him in a prime position to be called upon if needed with his mounted infantry and if necessary to defend the camp. And his skills in defences being an officer of Engineers would have been usefull.

It's fair to say, with reference to fresh orders waiting for Durnford, when he took over command at Isandlwana he took with that command Pulleine's order to defend the camp. As for relinquishing his command back to Pulliene is yet another story, we need to get a better understanding of the army protocol of the day

Quote :

As for relinquishing his command back to Pulliene is yet another story.

Agree, I don't fully understand how that works.

Ray63 wrote:

To me Durnsford's order to move to the camp, puts him in a prime position to be called upon if needed with his mounted infantry and if necessary to defend the camp. And his skills in defences being an officer of Engineers would have been usefull.

Agreed. That is a fair comment and what LC probably intended.

"in a prime position to be called upon if needed " Durnford did not feel needed in the camp; he could see Pulleine starting to make defensive arrangements and perhaps encouraged him along a bit. However, the camp had over 1000 men with MH's defending it, and to be fair, Pulleine, Durnford, Chelmsford and every other player would have had no idea at this point that the main Zulu impi of over 20,000 warriors was about to bear down on the camp. A large Zulu force perhaps, but in their worst nightmare, not the main Zulu impi! They all thought it was out where LC had ridden off to.
Durnford thus, feeling surplus to requirements, used his initiative and did what he felt needed to be done and went off to cover LC's rear.
Whether this was right or wrong, we now know. With hindsight. But we know now what no one else did.
Durnford did what he thought was the right thing to do, and surely no one can blame him for that. It is easy for us in our armchairs 133 years later to criticise him, but...

Ray.

You are doing what you accuse me of doing, and that is, "what YOU THINK that the order represented".

You say that to you 'the order is quite clear and concise', then perhaps you would enlighten us all to your wisdom, and let us all know what Durnford was supposed to do when he got to the camp?

There is nothing in the order of the 22nd that tells him what he is supposed to do when he gets to the camp, why?

The answer is because he already knows what he is supposed to do by his orders of the 19th, and if there are no further orders to the contrary of those orders, then he will carry out those orders and support Chelmsford.

Night night all, I am off to my cot as I am on early shift at 4.00am. Hope it will not be a mad monday morning on the roads.
Martin, Ray, Dave, you are not gonna find all the answers and sort it all out tonight! But you may find some food for thought and research to check out!
Cheerio fellas

Martin. Your obvisouly not reading the posts before you post.



Ray posted. Subject: Re: Crealock's notebook. Today at 5:27 pm

"

Quote :

What he was supposed to do when he got there"
Not for us to question. We can speculate, and guess what he was supposed to have done, but that doesn't alter the fact regarding what he was told to do in the order primary source.

Quote :

Martin. There is nothing in the order of the 22nd that tells him what he is supposed to do when he gets to the camp, why?

Because as you say, Durford was senior, he took command along with Pulleines order to defend the camp. Army protocol would have dictated this is what happens. So Durnford follow his order to move to the camp, and followed protocol thereafter.

Ray63 wrote:

You yourself say that the Zulus wound not have attacked until the 23rd had they not been attacked.

And what is the significance to you of that Ray?

Quote :

And what is the significance to you of that Ray?

Come on 6pdr. Your not stupid. He clearly trying to show, if Durnfords troops hadn't found and fired on the Zulus would they have attacked.

Chard1879 wrote:

Quote :

And what is the significance to you of that Ray?

Come on 6pdr. Your not stupid. He clearly trying to show, if Durnfords troops hadn't found and fired on the Zulus would they have attacked.

And what is your answer to that question Chard?

It's more than a thought than a question. If Dunford's men hadn't found and attacked.

Anyway that's my last thought on that. Going along with Ray, need to concentrate on the order.

Quote :

“You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column. Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorke’s Drift as ordered yesterday. 2/24, artillery & mounted men with the General & Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant.
J.N.C.
If Bengough’s battalion has crossed the River at Hands Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwana Valley).”

Chard.

I answered Ray's 5.27 post, see my post at 6.11.

Durnford did not "take" command from Pulleine, but with being the senior officer he would have been 'technically' in command.

Read what Cochrane says, he states that Pulleine said that he was sorry that Durnford had come to the camp has he would take over command, however Durnford replied that he would not interfere with Pulleines command of the camp, and that he was not going to stay at the camp.

Durnford did not have any orders to stay at the camp, he did not have any orders to take command of the camp, he did not have any orders to reinforce the camp, he did not have any orders to support or assist Pulleine.

But he did have his orders of the 19th, and these were to support Chelmsford in his attack on the zulus along with Bengough, if there had been any change to these orders he would have expected to receive them on his arrival at the camp, but there were no further orders for him, so the orders of the 19th were the ones that Durnford had to follow.

Chard1879 wrote:

It's more than a thought than a question. If Dunford's men hadn't found and attacked.

Nah, let's run something to ground for once. I ask you again Chard (or Ray) what does it mean to you? Don't run and hide from it. Be a man. Stand up for what you think.

Haven't got a clue what you are on about. It's clear what's been said.

But I will do a Martin, to help you understand.

If Dunford's men hadn't found and attacked, the Zulu's, would the Zulu have attacked the camp.

That's not to hard to understand is it.

Although TMFH proves they did intend to attack, the text above, as mentioned is a thought.

Chard

THFH does not prove that the Zulus were attacking the camp on the 22nd, its a theory that many, Knight included
do not believe.




Cheers