Lt Col Pulleine - responsible for the loss of iSandlwana?

Impi .
It's clear to see that Clery mentions the word '' Strengthen '' after the battle ! . This is the problem . LC should have checked it or had Crealock read it back to him to check for omissions , this is of course if any of them were going to use the word STRENGTHEN in the first place ? .

Littlehand .
I dont see how you can take Clery at his word where he states the word Strengthen was in the orders , funny how it's in the minds of the commanders after the fact , and isnt issued when Pulleine & Durnford are still breathing , you've seen the orders enough times now surely . So I cant see how you can possibly say '' This is what Pulleine expected Durnford to do '' . Please ! . Clery , Crealock and LC had ample time to come up with the word '' STRENGTHEN '' once the camp had fallen .
I suppose you think there was no conspricay theory ? . The orders clearly show the word '' Strengthen '' isnt in them . But , Alas , after the battle it appears in all correspondance . scratch

90th.

90th is quite right, we can't trust the word of LC or any of his staff.
Indeed, on the "Crealock's notebook" thread, as discovered by Julian, Crealock told Durnford's brother? Edward, some years later what the wording in the order he had written actually said. He also told the same to Major Jekyl at the War Office. Perhaps Crealock felt some guilt and contrition years after the event and felt he owed it to the Durbford family to tell the truth.

And the order did not contain the word "strengthen".

Whether this one crucial word was uttered by LC and heard by Clery at the time, or, made up afterwards in order to cover their own failings by blaming Durnford, we will never know for sure.
Perhaps it was said, and incompetently left out of the order that Crealock wrote on LC's behalf.

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

In which case, the whole of the court enquiry accounts / Statements should not be trusted or taken into consideration, as it was under the guildance of LC and members of his staff.

The fact that Pulleine never disputed, Clery's statement at the time must account for something. If there was a conspiracy among the those heading the enquiry, they would have made sure they all said the same.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Ulundi

Chelsmford and his staff had nothing to do with the COI statments, they were interviewed and wrote down
by Harness and several other officers who hadn't been at Isandlwana.

Cheers

DB, your comment is so very naiive - sorry to be patronising, no disrespect intended Salute

Whether LC had anything to do with the COI or not is irrelevent anyway, they'd have got their story straight by then.

Ulundi, you don't mean Pulleine - he was dead by then. If you mean Crealock, he obviously kept his mouth shut out of loyalty to LC att he time - he is taking one for the team.
Years later, he clearly lets us know what the order he actually wrote said. He did not volunteer this information at the time, at the COI, he kept his mouth shut.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Tasker

What i ment is LC and Co couldn't have interfered at the COI, as most of them were the one's giving the information
to Harness ect. They could change their story, but they would have no power to make others ect.

Cheers

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: Tasker

What i ment is LC and Co couldn't have interfered at the COI, as most of them were the one's giving the information
to Harness ect. They could change their story, but they would have no power to make others ect.

Cheers

Fair comment DB. But Clery, Crealock would still have been on message. LC's arse needed covering and he was still a very powerful and influential figure.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

LC was very cleaver to have Harness on the board of enquiry!!!!

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

Quote :: LC was very cleaver to have Harness on the board of enquiry!!!!

Why's that John.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

"At about noon Col Harness halted in the col between the Hlazakazi and the Magogo and shortly after, it was noticed that the guns at Isandlwana were firing. Soon after this a message was received from Comdt Browne which read, "For God's sake come with all your men; the camp is surrounded and will be taken unless helped". Maj Gosset was present when this was received and when Harness decided to move off to assist, he carried the message to Chelmsford who had already received a report that the Zulus were attacking Isandlwana. He had galloped up the slopes of Mdutshana, a nearby koppie from which Isandlwana is clearly visible, seeing nothing amiss he apparently discounted both reports and sent orders for Harness to return."

Just a quick overview

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

OK. Can't see how that would have been a problem for him being on the panel of the court of enquiry.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

He couldn't give evidence that Chelmsford stopped him from returning to the camp.

Cheers

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

He couldn't be called upon to give evidence!!!!!

That said, i don't see what he could of done. if he had got to the camp. Some like Colenso, says had been allowed to continue, he could have saved the camp. Suspect

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

Thanks John. I will send you an email on this.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

No Problem Salute

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

John wrote:: He couldn't be called upon to give evidence!!!!!

:

What ?

Cheers

Ulundi. This from Colenso.

Lieut. -Colonel Crealock's " statement " is stigmatised as "palpably written to establish a preconceived theory;" and The Daily News says most justly that " Colonel Harness should not have sat as member of the court of inquiry. How it could have been supposed that an officer who had taken so prominent a part in the doings of the 22nd January was a fit and suitable member of a court assembled even to take evidence merely, is more than we can understand. Besides, the very fact of his being a member, we are told, precluded Colonel Harness from giving his own valuable evidence."

I will send you a link.... Its covered alot more there.

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

Thanks LH. It's becoming clearer, as to why John says LC was being smart. Harness was unable to give his evidence. Look forward to the link.

I will send a couple of links over...so you can You need to study mo

up on it.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Still he was well rewarded!

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

How!!!

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

"London Gazette November 28th 1879: "The Queen has been graciously pleased to give orders for the following promotions and appointments to The Most Honourable Order of the Bath: To be Ordinary Members of the Military Division of the Second Class or Knights Commanders of the said Most Honourable Order: Lt Colonel Arthur Harness. Royal Artillery. (awarded the C.B.)"

He ended his career as a Major General.!!

Not bad for playing Ball...

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

24th

Can you show me how those 2 evets are linked ?

Cheers

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

LH. Can you send me those links as well. Salute

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

How far was Wood from Isandlwana. Wasn't it believed the sounds of the guns was coming from Wood's column.

Ray, you may be getting confused. It was Wood who claims to have heard the guns from Isandlwana 50 miles away.

Click on link and see book extracts posted by Graves1879.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Subject: Lt Col Pulleine . Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:27 pm

Ulundi .
What books / book do you have on the war , and have you read it or them ? . I may be able to tell you which pages to read regarding Harness . I did post in the last day or so that Harness was heading to the camp at Isandlwana when I think it was Gosset who caught up with him and told him to turn around and go back toward Mangeni , this , Gosset said was an order from LC . You dont have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work out why he was put on the board by LC do you ??. If you cant work it out , he was gagged from having any say in the proceedings , do you see now why he was indeed put on the board of inquiry ?.
90th.

Ulundi and possibly other's who arent to sure of the meaning of my previous post , go and check my previous post for the original posting , it may shed some light on this for you .
90th.

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

What would men be doing in their tents while the camp was being attacked. Should they have not been out on the firing lines. I can think of no excuse why they should be in the tents. Anyone know. Don't say sleeping with all that noise going on.

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

LH. Sorry mate.. Any chance you can send me the links as well. Salute

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Ray

Can you show the source that states men were in their tents while the attack was taking place ?

Later during the battle men would have been among the tents as the companies were pressed back. ]

Cheers

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Ray, I don't think we will ever know the truth, is he talking about cilivian's or Soldiers. We know the soldiers fell back on the camp, persued by the Zulu's and a lot of killing did take place. Why he states running "out" the tents is anyone's guess.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

[quote="Drummer Boy 14"]Ray

Can you show the source that states men were in their tents while the attack was taking place ?

[quote]
Hi all,

From memory (no have my books at hand) the source is Lt CURLING R.A (CURLING's letters).
regards

frédéric

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

Ymob. Correct Curlings Letters....

"

Quote :: We trotted off to the camp thinking to take up another position there but found it was in possession of the enemy who were killing the men as they ran out of their tents. We went right through them and out the other side losing nearly all our gunners in doing so and one or two of the sergeants. The road to Rorke's Drift that we hoped to retreat by was full of the enemy so no way being open we followed a crowd of natives and camp followers who were running down a ravine. The Zulus were all among them stabbing men as they ran...and finally the guns got stuck and could go no further. In a moment the Zulus closed in and the drivers who now alone remained were pulled off their horses and killed...

"

Horrible to think about, but maybe some of the lads, seeing the terrible death that was about to be theirs vainly tried to hide in the tents?

COURT OF INQUIRY.—QUESTION.
HL Deb 18 July 1879 vol 248

LORD TRURO
Asked, Why Colonel Harness, who could give very full information with regard to the Isandlana disaster, was put upon the Court of Inquiry—a course which deprived the Court of the assistance of a most important witness?

VISCOUNT BURY
In reply, said, the suggestion that Colonel Harness was put upon the Court of Inquiry to deprive it of a material witness was a presumption which the noble Lord was not justified in putting forward.

LORD TRURO
explained, that what he said was that that was the effect of the appointment. He did not say it was done for that purpose.

VISCOUNT BURY
The noble Lord who commands in South Africa is a a Member of your Lordships' House, and he is not here to defend himself. The War Office is not in possession of the information which would enable you to come to a conclusion. In these circumstances I think we are bound to suspend our judgment.

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Back then they could see what was going on!!!!

littlehand wrote:: COURT OF INQUIRY.—QUESTION.
HL Deb 18 July 1879 vol 248

LORD TRURO
Asked, Why Colonel Harness, who could give very full information with regard to the Isandlana disaster, was put upon the Court of Inquiry—a course which deprived the Court of the assistance of a most important witness?

VISCOUNT BURY
In reply, said, the suggestion that Colonel Harness was put upon the Court of Inquiry to deprive it of a material witness was a presumption which the noble Lord was not justified in putting forward.

LORD TRURO
explained, that what he said was that that was the effect of the appointment. He did not say it was done for that purpose.

VISCOUNT BURY
The noble Lord who commands in South Africa is a a Member of your Lordships' House, and he is not here to defend himself. The War Office is not in possession of the information which would enable you to come to a conclusion. In these circumstances I think we are bound to suspend our judgment.

!!!

!!!

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi Littlehand.,
Thanks for posting ;

Viscount Bury ;

The noble Lord who commands in South Africa is a member of your Lordship's House, and he is not here to defend himself. The War Office is not in possesssion of all the information which woulkd enable you to reach a conclusion. In these circumstances, I think we are are bound to suspend our judgement .

Well, if ever there was drivel dished out and a continuation of the cover-up attempt this is it. This is utterly disgraceful, deceitful and dishonouarable behaviour by people in leadership positions...... and all designed to decieve the British public!.

regards

barry

Yes Barry, there were more involved in the cover up than just Chelmsford and Crealock, however, The Duke of Cambridge (The C in C), could smell a rat, and there were also others who saw through the cover up, but Chelmsford had the ear of the Queen, and who was going to argue with her?

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Martin, you no doubt know more about this than I do. But where did you find information regarding The Duke of Cambridge smelling a rat,, as you put it.

OH.

Look in the book 'Zulu Victory' by Lock and Quantrill.

Read the 'cover up' in chapters 8 and 9, ie; chapter 8 Web of Deception, and chapter 9 Horse Guards' Interrogation and Verdict.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

The cover up is a different subject. It does not alter the what happen at Isandlwana, He was there. Lets not look at the Court of Enquiry as a factor in the lost of the camp.

The cover up is important because it is an attempt to cover up of the vague, imprecise orders which were issued by Chelmsford and written down by Crealock in haste, without proper care and attention.
The result of which (to some degree) caused the camp at iSandlwana to be lost along with 1333 lives.

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

How could the situation have changed, even if Durnford had been ordered to take command. The fact he did take command, renders what Crealock wrote or didn't write a lost argument.

Dave wrote:: How could the situation have changed, even if Durnford had been ordered to take command. The fact he did take command, renders what Crealock wrote or didn't write a lost argument.

The matter of Durnford "taking command" can't be explained any clearer or in any greater detail than it has been already - you either get it, or you don't. Rolling Eyes

Personally, I think the outcome of the battle would not have been any different had Durnford taken command of the camp's defence and his column stayed, fortified and defended the camp, or left as it did.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

I don't doub't it for a second!!!

"The men at Isandhlwana were not well handled, it must be admitted; but it has since leaked out that many of them would not rally round their officers, but attempted safety in flight. Dozens of the men, sergeants and other non-commissioned officers, have since declared they did not even know the names of their company officers, or those of their right or left-hand man."

Source:THE STORY OF THE ZULU CAMPAIGN

impi
That's a highly dubious reprt.

Cheers

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Yes, how would the author know this?

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Because they both took part in the Zulu War. One didn't make it beyond Ulundi!

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