Save the Camp

:[url=http://ww .. Impi .
For godsake man read the thread on Durnford's orders ! . To me its you who seems to pluck things out of fresh air because you wish to be different ! . Good luck to you , believe what you will , but the evidence is plain to see that Durnford was NEVER EVER ordered to take command of the camp , as for me proving it to you , you wish to be enlightened , so you find the post and read it AGAIN yourself ! . You dont need me to hold your hand , or quite possibly you do ! .
90TH.  

Martin wrote :Crealock was a proven liar, he would say anything to protect his own and LC's backside, so anyone who believes anything he says must be very gullible. There has been much debate on this forum regarding Col Durnford, and even with all the evidence to prove that he was NOT to blame for iSandlwana, there are still those that will not accept it because it doesn't fit in with their misguided beliefs. It has become pointless trying to change their opinion regarding Col Durnford, their minds are made up, and no matter how much evidence you give them to prove that Col Durnford was scapegoated and blamed for the massacre at iSandlwana, they still refuse to 'see the light' because their stubborn minds will not accept anything other than to blame Col Durnford.

I think Col Durnford.n is not responsible for the disaster, he only passed through the camp, to join these two goons ,Dartnel and Lord Cretin ...


Martin wrote : Col Durnford was an honourable and very brave man, but his name and reputation have been blackened by the likes of LC, Crealock, etc, in an effort to protect LC's backside and put the blame on Col Durnford, and with him being killed at iSandlwana he could not defend himself against the false accusations thrown around by LC and the rest of his cronies, and between them they conspired to destroy the reputation of a brave and noble officer, shame on them.

Yes completely agree! But why Lord Cretin does is it not taken Dartnel, after Isandhlwana ... Because he was alive?

What could be done to save the camp? Not strengthen Dartnel!

Cheers

Pascal

IMPI

 Person has never ordered Durnford to take command of the camp instead of Pulleine!  :[url=http://ww 
It was Lord Cretin who ordered a Durnford to join them, he and Dartnell ... 

He went through Isandhlwana, because it was his obligation road, unfortunately, he stayed too long

Cheers

Pascal

Martin
Durnford was not the paragon of virtue you paint him to be.
There are a number of things he must be held accountable for, including sending the Rocket Battery to their deaths.

Cheers

Yes Durnford sent first, the first companies of the 1/24 th in the front of the Zulu and the Rocket Battery to Their deaths.

But anyway the battle was already lost as soon as Lord Cretin has left the camp, so the wrong choice of deployment of Durnford are the trifle, alongside the responsibility of Dartnel and Lord Cretin...

Hi springy.

I don't think that Col Durnford 'sent' the RB to their deaths, were they not lead astray by a carbineer and ambushed by the zulu's? I don't know what plans Durnford had for the RB, but I have mentioned it before about a scenario that I think might have been in Durnford's mind before Pulleine refused to lend him the 2 companies, and this was to form a defence to fall back on just in case there was any problem in trying to deter the 'large body of zulu's' that had been reported has heading towards LC. I think Durnford was planning a sort of ambush for the zulu's he thought were heading towards LC, the RB and the 2 coy's would have been part of this plan. Durnford would attempt to turn the zulu's away from the direction of LC, whilst Raw etc, would approach from the other direction, thereby forming a sort of pincer movement. The zulu's would be driven towards the waiting RB and the 2 coy's were between them all, ie, Durnford, Raw, the RB and the 2 coy's, the zulu's would have been destroyed or forced to surrender, if however, the zulu's kept attacking, then all could have fallen back on the camp (a fighting withdrawal), where the whole of the camp could have opened fire and the zulu's destroyed. But the size of the zulu's was not known at that time, Durnford was trying to stop the zulu's from cutting LC off or attacking his flank, and by the time it became obvious that there were more zulu's than what had been reported, it was now too late to do much about it, but Durnford did stop them for a time, and if he had more ammo things might have been a lot different.

1 / It is called how carbineer that sent RB to death ?

2 / Fortunately Pulleinne not lent companies from 24 th to Durnford ... 

3 / A pincer movement? (Wanted by Durnford) there were not enough troops for it ! :[url=http://ww 

4 / It is sure that the RB frightened Zulu ... :[url=http://ww 

5 / Even with more ammunition, Durnford was beaten and lost the camp ... 

6/Martin how a connoisseur like you can still imagine the battle of Isandhlwana beings could have won with the small amount of troops in the camp? 

Morning Martin
Couple of points you raise.
The Rocket Battery
They were instructed to follow on, Durnford directed Stafford to to detail an escort. They were indeed aproached by two Carbineers, but at that point they were already in the path of a portion of the chest. No my friend they were dead the moment Durnford elected to ride of, out of sight, and leave them to struggle along on foot. He, Durnford knew that he would be moving at speed, horses tend to do that, what chnce did a foot patrol with a couple of mules stand?
The Pincer movement.
Its quite possible you are correct but in unknown country? He had no idea what lay in front of him.
Protecting Chelmsford
Rode in the wrong direction to do that and why would he need to, Chelmsford had a huge force with him. What on earth could Durnford contribute to that? Very little I would suggest.
Durnford Pullein interchange
Durnford had battle experience, Pullein had none, although its probable that Durnford had never met him. Durnford should have been able to sum up the situation, he did in fact remind Pullein that he had been ordered to draw in the defences, and demand that Pulein do his job properly. Durnford was at the camp long enough to advise Pullein what to do and ensure it was done before riding of, which he was perfectly entitled to do.

Durnfords only hope of salvaging anything from his self made debacle would have come from getting back to camp as fast as possible, maybe leaving one section to slow down the left horn. At least then the camp would have had one senior officer with combat experience.
He knew he had made a couple of cardinal errors, its recorded that he was heard to mutter about not suviving the same. He did redeem himself a touch by that magnificent fighting stand that held back the left horn.

He has to stand alongside Chelmsford and Pullein and share the responsibility

Cheers

Hello springy mate.

Yes, a lot of what you say is very reasonable, but I think that what we are all forgetting is that no one knew the vast size of the zulu army that was hidden and about to attack the camp. The reports (although numerous) had suggested large bodies of zulu's had been observed moving about the hills, but it wasn't clear how large the zulu army was, and Pulleine had done little about it. When Durnford arrived at least he had the sense to try to establish what was going on, and when the report came to him about a large body of zulu's heading in the direction of LC he had little choice but to act on this report. OK, yes, he has to take his share of responsibility, but to be blamed for everything (as some people on here do), no way. The magnificent stand you mention shows that he could rally the men to him, and it was indeed a magnificent stand that these brave souls made in holding back the left horn, and therefor allowing others to escape, and all credit to them for their self sacrifice in order to try to save others.

Hope all is well with you my friend.

Hi Martin
Yep all well in the Cape, at present living up to its name as the Cape of Storms.

Youve put your finger on a key issue really that: "nobody knew the size of the zulus in the area."
Its a mute point in that the Anti Durnfords ites could use to say 'then why go swanning of chasing an enemy you knew nothing about'.
The pro Durnfordites will of course say that Durnford needed to know how big the force was.
6 against half a dozen really.
Personally I believe Durnford should have waited to hear from the troops he sent onto the plateau and then commited himself ( which of course he would not have done ). In that scenario when Shepstone came racing back into camp an experienced officer would have been in charge and would I am sure meated out some terrible punishment to the zulu.
But he didnt wait and that I believe is Durnfords biggest fault, to impetuous.

Cheers mate

springbok9, why would Durnford stay in the camp when at the time he left the camp it was not a given that the Zulus were going to attack? He was not in command of the camp. He gave Pullein suggestions of what to do and then left to see what was going on for himself. What I understood in my research was he was going to prevent LC from being cut off from the camp. He then ran into the advancing Zulus that were attacking the camp. He held them off and were given reinforcements from the camp. He then was running low on ammunition and was forced to fall back to the camp. In my opinion he got caught up in a fight that wasn't his and stayed to fight it when he did not have to. He could have done like LC and leave the camp behind and went on a personal quest.

Commander Howse

springbok9 wrote :

The Rocket Battery :They were instructed to follow on, Durnford directed Stafford to to detail an escort. They were indeed aproached by two Carbineers, but at that point they were already in the path of a portion of the chest. No my friend they were dead the moment Durnford elected to ride of, out of sight, and leave them to struggle along on foot. He, Durnford knew that he would be moving at speed, horses tend to do that, what chnce did a foot patrol with a couple of mules stand?

No chance !

springbok9 wrote :

The Pincer movement.
Its quite possible you are correct but in unknown country? He had no idea what lay in front of him.

A pincer movement with so few troops :

The real question, is why were they still using rockets, they were useless. Especially for 15 to 20 thousand Zulus.

Commander Howse

Martin wrote :

Yes, a lot of what you say is very reasonable, but I think that what we are all forgetting is that no one knew the vast size of the zulu army that was hidden and about to attack the camp.

They would have guessed !

Martin wrote : The reports (although numerous) had suggested large bodies of zulu's had been observed moving about the hills, but it wasn't clear how large the zulu army was, and Pulleine had done little about it.

Yes Pulleine is a sacred number too!

Martin wrote : When Durnford arrived at least he had the sense to try to establish what was going on, and when the report came to him about a large body of zulu's heading in the direction of LC he had little choice but to act on this report. OK, yes, he has to take his share of responsibility, but to be blamed for everything (as some people on here do), no way.

This is wrong, he could do nothing to avoid the disaster!

Martin wrote :The magnificent stand you mention shows that he could rally the men to him, and it was indeed a magnificent stand that these brave souls made in holding back the left horn, and therefor allowing others to escape, and all credit to them for their self sacrifice in order to try to save others.

Yes he saved the honor of the defender's by his conduct ...

springbok9 wrote :Youve put your finger on a key issue really that: "nobody knew the size of the zulus in the area."

It is suspected that the Zulu army was huge, this is a native feature in all colonial wars, called this, the numerical superiority ...

springbok9 wrote : Its a mute point in that the Anti Durnfords ites could use to say 'then why go swanning of chasing an enemy you knew nothing about'.
The pro Durnfordites will of course say that Durnford needed to know how big the force was.

Yes, but reconnaissance should have hired fewer personnel, small patrols were more efficasses

springbok9 wrote : 6 against half a dozen really.
Personally I believe Durnford should have waited to hear from the troops he sent onto the plateau and then commited himself ( which of course he would not have done ). In that scenario when Shepstone came racing back into camp an experienced officer would have been in charge and would I am sure meated out some terrible punishment to the zulu.

Zulu could not be beaten at Isandhlwana ...

But he didnt wait and that I believe is Durnfords biggest fault, to impetuous.

Still this is not a defect

Masson wrote :

why would Durnford stay in the camp when at the time he left the camp it was not a given that the Zulus were going to attack? He was not in command of the camp.

Yes very good, you've got it!

Masson wrote :

He gave Pullein suggestions of what to do and then left to see what was going on for himself. What I understood in my research was he was going to prevent LC from being cut off from the camp. He then ran into the advancing Zulus that were attacking the camp. He held them off and were given reinforcements from the camp.

Yes very good, you've got it!

Masson wrote :

He then was running low on ammunition and was forced to fall back to the camp. In my opinion he got caught up in a fight that wasn't his and stayed to fight it when he did not have to.

Yes very good, you've got it!

Masson wrote :

He could have done like LC and leave the camp behind and went on a personal quest.

No, he must die if his life would have been hell, LC has already put everything on his back, then he was dead, then you imagine if he had survived, it would have made him a coward!


Masson wrote :
The real question, is why were they still using rockets, they were useless. Especially for 15 to 20 thousand Zulus.

This is called the military bullshit, but it can also be a big business, which built and sold this stuff to the poor British Army ...?

Pascal, especially after the debacle at Bushman's Pass.

Commander Howse

Yes this is what some call "the military experience of Durnford" :[url=http://ww 

Bushman's pass was more of a roundup then a battle. Then when your men abandon you and disobey you at every turn, what experience do you get?

Commander Howse

No, it was a big joke, :[url=http://ww  lucky Durnford :[url=http://ww 

Commander Howse is correct.

Col Durnford did NOT have any orders to take command of or to remain at the camp, he did, however, have other orders in which he and Bengough were to support LC in his attack on the zulu's (Matyanas). If there was any change to these earlier orders, then LC should have left further orders for Durnford in the care of Pulleine, however, there were no further orders waiting for Durnford at the camp, therefor the earlier orders were the only ones that Durnford had to go on, and they were to support LC, and when the report came in about the large body of zulu's heading in LC's direction, Durnford was trying to stop them from outflanking and cutting off LC, and therefor he left the camp to do just that, ie; to support LC.

Chelmsford should take the lions share of the blame for this massacre at iSandlwana, even though he was not present, he was in overall command and made the decisions, and it was through his blunderings that all these events occurred. But to then conspire with others to put the burden of blame onto the shoulders of a very gallant officer, shows the depth that he and his cronies could sink to, Chelmsford and his cronies should have been thoroughly ashamed of themselves, they were a total disgrace.

Mr M. Cooper  I couldn't have said it any better.

Commander Howse

Hi Martin
Good post. One question though.

Then why did Durnford go in a different direction to Chelmsford?

Have fun with that one. 

springbok9, which way did Durnford go  

Commander Howse

Thanks springy mate.  

The only reason I can think of at the moment is that the zulu's reported as heading in the direction of LC would also be heading in a different direction, as LC by this time would have been quite a few miles away, and would therefor be in a different direction to which he originally moved off from the camp, meaning that Durnford would also have to set off in a different direction.

Hope you understand what I mean mate ( I think I may have confused myself trying to explain it) :[url=http://ww 

Masson
Durnford went to the North East. Chelmsford was East South East.
Martin
Thats as plain as old man Erasmus  
I think Durnford was chasing the 600 zulus that had been reported to him. And that puts him outside the orders issued by Chelmsford.

Just my theory.  

springbok9, easily explained, if he believed that the Zulus were going towards LC going north east would put him behind the Zulus. This would allow him to attack the rear and trap the Zulus when LC turns his force to intercept the Zulus following him. Unfortunately, the Zulus were not going after LC and Durnford ran right into the main Zulu army.

Commander Howse

If Durnford was intent on suporting Chelmsford he would have ridden across the plain turning East North East below Magogo That would have protected Chelmsfords rear and put the two into contact.
Moving the way he did, up the Qwabe valley was a direct attempt to attack the zulu a long way from support. In addition the rocket battery was left flounering a few miles behind. I Durnford had reached the end of the Quabe valley, and he came close, he would have been heading for the Ngwebini valley. In the middle of nowhere really. From there he would have had to move East then South East to get anywhere close to the Mangeni.
I agree that Durnford had orders from Chelmsford to support him against the Matanyas, however this doesnt fit either, he would have had to ride South East to do that.
Any direction from East down to South East puts Durnford in his supporting roll, to the North hes of on his own mission, chasing the 600 strong impi that could not have been a threat to Chelmsfords breakfast pik nik 

PS My app will be available hopefully next month, it will explain my theory with full photographic and GPS positioning. ( Sorry Pete cheap piece of advertising) 

springy.

Umm, I don't know about putting him outside of his orders, his orders were to support LC, so surely he was doing this by trying to find out were these zulu's were going in order to prevent them from outflanking or cutting off LC.

Yes, that Erasmus bloke wants to get some new glirks, and so does the other guy Hill. The other two who ended the final test on the last day with just 21 runs required from 4 overs should have used better discretion, but it's the ICC to blame really. Never mind, it was 3-0, but should really have been 4-0.

Sorry Martin
I added a post script to my last.

Cheers

Finally I see that everyone agrees with me,:

Finally I see that everyone agrees with me, but nobody could tell me until now how to save the camp? It is a great mystery to all ...

For those who did not understand the topic ...

At the moment LC knows that the camp was in danger, that he would have done ... 

What should he have done, or what did he do? As a line in the movie Sharps Rifles, He should have gone behind his tent and blown his brains out.

Commander Howse

90th wrote:

:[url=http://ww .. Impi .
For godsake man read the thread on Durnford's orders ! . To me its you who seems to pluck things out of fresh air because you wish to be different ! . Good luck to you , believe what you will , but the evidence is plain to see that Durnford was NEVER EVER ordered to take command of the camp , as for me proving it to you , you wish to be enlightened , so you find the post and read it AGAIN yourself ! . You dont need me to hold your hand , or quite possibly you do ! .
90TH.  

 
90th which question of Impi's are you referring to?

Pascal MAHE wrote:

IMPI

 Person has never ordered Durnford to take command of the camp instead of Pulleine!  :[url=http://ww 
It was Lord Cretin who ordered a Durnford to join them, he and Dartnell ... 

He went through Isandhlwana, because it was his obligation road, unfortunately, he stayed too long

Cheers

Pascal

 Am I going mad or what? This discussion is all over the place.

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

Commander Howse is correct.

Col Durnford did NOT have any orders to take command of or to remain at the camp, he did, however, have other orders in which he and Bengough were to support LC in his attack on the zulu's (Matyanas). If there was any change to these earlier orders, then LC should have left further orders for Durnford in the care of Pulleine, however, there were no further orders waiting for Durnford at the camp, therefor the earlier orders were the only ones that Durnford had to go on, and they were to support LC, and when the report came in about the large body of zulu's heading in LC's direction, Durnford was trying to stop them from outflanking and cutting off LC, and therefor he left the camp to do just that, ie; to support LC.

Chelmsford should take the lions share of the blame for this massacre at iSandlwana, even though he was not present, he was in overall command and made the decisions, and it was through his blunderings that all these events occurred. But to then conspire with others to put the burden of blame onto the shoulders of a very gallant officer, shows the depth that he and his cronies could sink to, Chelmsford and his cronies should have been thoroughly ashamed of themselves, they were a total disgrace.

He was ordered to move to the camp. End of. The attack dictated he should have stayed! He of all people knew, you do not fight the Zulu's in the open. He was a libility and partly to blame for the diaster!

24th, Durnford was just ordered to ride to the camp, He did, orders done. He had the right to leave and scout or support any of the # 3 column. # 2 Column sole purpose was to protect the border and to support # 3 column.

Commander Howse

His order stated move to the camp. It did not say pop in on your way for Breakfast. He was sent there because, LC had divided the force. It makes military sense to bolster up with others available Dunford was available.
Don't be roped in by Martins theory, he was following previous orders. Martin has no evidence to back that theory, it is his and his alone!

"Around 6am Captain Barry and Lt Vereker watching a large body of Zulus on the extreme left of the camp, and they informed me that a large force of about 5,000 had gone round behind the Isandula Hill"
Source: TMFH. Lieutenant W. Higginson, 1/3rd Natal Native Contingent (NNC.) evidence.

Why wasn't confirmation obtained as to what the Zulus were doing and where they were going. Would it not have been in their own interest to find out.

Here is Durnford's orders,

“You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column. Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorke’s Drift as ordered yesterday. 2/24, artillery & mounted men with the General & Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant. J.N.C. If Bengough’s battalion has crossed the River at Hands Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwana Valley).”

Well, Durnford marched to the camp, then what? Unless Durnford had orders waiting for him at the camp, Durnford fell back to his original orders to support the # 3 Column. I read somewhere he believed the Zulus were trying to cut LC off, so Durnford left camp to prevent that from happening. Lets just say that wasn't the case, lets say he was going to stay at the camp, well PULLEINE was there at the camp, he gave suggestion to Pulleine what to do, then left. Pulleine should have been capable of a simple task of securing the camp, turns out he wasn't, but that is not the point. There were mass reports of Zulus around the area to the north, Durnford went out to scout or to set up a buffer zone in order for the camp to be better prepared. He might of gone out to fight them himself like his critics say, I do not believe this. The fact is we do not know and probably will never know.

Commander Howse

Commander Howse wrote:

You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column.

The order is more than clear. That is all Durnford had to do. The rest is just advising him of what the others were doing. Why should there be anything else. Army protocol dictates Durnford was senior and should take command, and he did.

Dave, apparently at this time the British thought the main army was to the east at the location LC was heading. Since the 1/24th and others left at Isandlwana were just guarding the baggage train, and this was before Durnford arrived, they probably felt that they were not going to attack them. Besides they could do nothing anyway. LC left them out to dry, especially when Durnford wasn't there. Just think what would happen if the Zulus attacked before Durnford was there. Who would got the blame then?

Commander Howse

Durnford only took command after the Zulus went on the attack, not before. Durnford was only in charge of the #2 column not #3 column unless ordered. He was not ordered to take command of the camp just ride there. He did that and was headed out to do something, nobody really knows.

Commander Howse

So want time did the Zulus attack.

"5th Evidence.—Lieutenant Cochrane, 32nd Regiment, states: I am employed as transport officer with No 2 Column, then under Colonel Durnford, R.E., on the 22nd January, 1879, the column marched on that morning from Rorke's Drift to Isandlwana in consequence of an order received from the Lieutenant General. I do not know the particulars of the order received. I entered the Isandlwana camp with Colonel Durnford about 10 A.M., and remained with him as Acting Staff Officer. On arrival he took over command from Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment. Colonel Pulleine gave over to Colonel Durnford a verbal state of the troops in camp at the time, and stated the orders he had received, viz., to defend the camp, these words were repeated two or three times in the conversation. Several messages were delivered, the last one to the effect that the Zulus were retiring in all directions—the bearer of this was not dressed in any uniform. On this message Colonel Durnford sent two troops Mounted Natives to the top of the hills to the left, and took with him two troops of Rocket Battery, with escort of one company Native Contingent, on to the front of the camp about four or five miles off. Before leaving, he asked Colonel Pulleine to give him. two companies 24th Regiment. Colonel Pulleine said that with the orders he had received he could not do it, but agreed with Colonel Durnford to send him help if he got into difficulties. Colonel Durnford, with two troops, went on ahead and met the enemy some four or five miles off in great force, and, as they showed also on our left, we retired in good order to the Drift, about a quarterof a mile in front of the camp, where the mounted men reinforced us, about two miles from the camp. On our retreat we came upon the remains of the Rocket Battery which had been destroyed.


"Captain Essex's Evidence. Rorke's Drift, January 24, 1879.

Durnford's last letter was to his mother. Durnford was known to be depressed, he missed all the opportunities due to illness and personal matters. His friends and everyone around him were advancing through the military structure, when he was not advancing. He was a depress person, that is all the letter sounds like. He felt again that he was being left behind. He was staple.

Commander Howse

The problem with the statements are that if Durnford took command of the camp Pulliene would not have a choice in the matter of sending men with Durnford. If Durnford wanted those men Pulliene as a lower rank would have to give him the men.

Commander Howse

Hi 24th . :[url=http://ww 
His perplexing post from Thurs at 4.10pm in which he agreed with Littlehand's post from Thurs 8.57 am , regarding Crealock
in which he ( Crealock ) states he left orders for Durnford to move to Isandlwana camp and take command of it , we know this is a fabrication ! . I told him to find the thread on that actual subject and read it !  Maybe you can help him locate it !   :[url=http://ww 
90th

It was dated the day before the diaster! You acknowledge he was depressed, and Ill and missed out on promotion ect. Is that the right man to give a command to? LC wanted him where he could keep an eye on him. And a supply depot would have been an ideal location. 
Still he certainly shown LC what he was capable off  

PS He was also well known for drinking and gambling.