Save the Camp

Hello all

At Isandhlwana, would have had the great Pulleine and his deputy Durnford to resist any hour ? For beings rescued by Chelmsford and so this battle becomes an ordinary defeat ...

Cheers

Pascal

Hello

So what? historians are out?

Cheers

pascal

So what time should have taken, the defenders of the camp of Isandhlwana to be rescued by LC ?

Springbok would possibly be the best one to answer that.

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Impi
To save our Bretton friend effort let me reproduce the time line you pointed out.

Possibly the easiest way to look at the morning of the 22nd with Chelmsford is to put it onto a time scale. That being said did the note from Pulleine really express the urgency that would have caused any commander concern?
Assuming that it had reflected more urgency, would the column have been able to get back to iSandlwana in time?
By 9.15 when the message was received the troops had just arrived in the Mangeni basin, having left at 4 in the morning that shows the time of travel, admittedly a great time delay was moving the guns and support wagons across the Dongas. So assuming the minimum travel time was 3 1/2 to 4 hours the earliest Chelmsford could have got back would have been 12.45 and thats assuming that all the troops where together in one place and ready to march. They werent, they were spread over a large part of the countryside. Just getting them together would have been at least 1 1/2 hours. So the earliest the column could have got back, without the guns, would have been 14.15. After the battle was over.
Second scenario
The message was received at 9.15. Then send messengers out for the mounted men, Russell, Mansell etc. They could have been on the road back by 10.45 and would have arrived in the camp area, probably close to the Quabe hill in time to help Durnford beat back the left wing.
The conjecture then would be: Would the zulu attack succeed without the left wing? Would the combined companies all facing North on the firing line be enough to stop the chest? I would say they did for a long time before Pope was forced to pull back to counter the left wing.

So in answer to the question posed the fault didnt lie with Chelmsford, it reposed in the communication from Pulleine not explaining the situation. Its remakable for its brevity, and a key factor in the defeat.

As allways happy to be proved wrong.

Cheers

springbok9 explained at best LC troops have returned to the camp at 14.15 pm without the artillery and the battle was over, it was over at  14.15 pm ?

A message sent by LC to 9.30 am could also prevent Durnford and / or Pulleine, of his arrival, which would have an impact on the morale of the defenders and the tactics of Pulleine...

springbok9 explained if the message was received at 9.15. Then send messengers out for the mounted men, Russell, Mansell etc.

They could have been on the road back by 10.45 and would have arrived in the camp area, probably close to the Quabe hill in time to help Durnford beat back the left wing.

For me from then on, the horsemen of the right wing in Durnford could have saved their skins, because the left wing Zulu would be folded on the chest ...

In this case the Zulu encirclement plane failed ...

Unless LC tried in vain to get into the camp ...

Unless troops camps not retreated rapidly on him, before the arrival of the right horn ...

The firepower of the British infantry who increased, Zulu being surprised by the unexpected arrival of LC, maybe the Zulus would weary ...

On the other hand between the time of his arrival and went into action, the Zulus could detach troops (the loins for example) to stop LC ...

But the reserve could not have come at once (provided Still it is to Isandhlwana ...)

Finally in my opinion it was playable ... The Zulu victory was not decisive, they can be folded at night and LC, Durnford and Pulleine would have slept at Isandhlwana ...

Here, the course of history was changed !

Cheers

Pascal

In my opinion if the camp was fortified like it should have been, they could have fought the Zulus in a organized fall back action into the camps. This would probably allowed them to hold off the Zulus long enough for reinforcements. What actually happen was that the British were stretch to thin and then with the ammunition running low had to fall back allowing the horns and body to over take the camp which wasn't fortified. A good example would be Rorke's Drift, they were able to hold the Zulus off until the Zulus were forced to retreat due to the lack of supplies.    


Mason Howse

Was Chelmsford really in a position to reinforce the camp.

I think he had a sufficient amount of troops at hand for the task, but I would agree with everyone else that he did not have enough of intelligence to risk it. With most of his army spread out and taking the army he had with him, it would have been dangerous going in blind. With the knowledge today I think he could have done it, but that is my opinion.


Update: After research Chelmsford was not in the condition to relieve the camp.

Hi Mason

A laager of 106 wagons and carts allowed to contain how many fighters?

And even if LC was gone as soon as possible to the camp, the maneuver could be identified by the Zulus, and he may have to be tackled head with troops of the royal army, as the loins, and back by Zulu, he followed that day ...

But I do not think LC was the readiness necessary in this kind of situation, LC is not Desaix at Marengo ...

Cheers

Pascal

But he would have still had the Zulus he was chasing from hill to hill contend with, could not have tuned his back on them, he would have been advancing to the camp with the enermy close behind him and in front, not an idea position to be in. And no additional ammo.

Yes that's what I explained above  

LC could have sent a dispatch to the part of his army that were still spread out to watch his back as he advanced to Isandlwana. The Zulus in my opinion would have broken if LC could gather at least 4,000 troops or more to relieve the troops at Isandlwana. This is viable only with the scenario of a fortified camp at Isandlwana. I do not think they would had to laager the camp, if Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine pulled in his troops at the beginning of the battle and formed a square they could have held the Zulus back long enough for reinforcements.  

Mason Howse



Update: After research this could not have been done.

To beat the Zulu royal army, being in the open, it takes a minimum of 25 British imperial infantry companies ...

LC forbade laager, so Pulleine would not have taken such an initiative, even the excellent Durnford did Pulleine proposed ...

For the square, it was no longer in use at that time, it will the slaughter of Isandhlwana, for that the square come back in fashion ...

So Pulleine never gave such orders and anyway it was not in his temperament, such initiatives ...

PTR

Hi Mason .
We have discussed this at length over a period of time , I suggest you try the search box as many good points were raised .
In a nutshell LC didnt have enough troops . His total Column strength was only 4,709 men of which only 1,275 Imperial Inf ,
more than half the column were the NNC ( 2,566 ) He didnt have a hope in hell really of saving the camp whether it was laagered or not . The simple answer is he DIDNT WANT to fortify etc etc , as he plainly stated they didnt have the time and the ground was to difficult to do so . Not yelling , merely emphasising LC's stance .
90th

Hi my friend Marsupial.

Yes this is true, We Have Discussed this at length over a period of time ...

But you know that we have discussed all of this war, over a period of time!

You also know me, that subjects constantly come back in one form or another on this forum on the Zulu war (some are even elastic), simply because this war did not last long.

Also there is not a lot of really different subjects and groups of members, tend to take an interest in the same kinds of topics you understand ?

And this is typical of new members ... And it does not matter ...

Why would Mason on the search box, me I am pleased to discuss this with him or another on 50 pages, if he is interested, it does not bother me ...

Cheers

Pascal

90th is that all LC had at the time with more number spread out, because to my knowledge there were still 5,852 British soldiers and 7,911 Natives that were not at Isandlwana. This is a total of 13,763. I understand that there was another group at Eshowe and others spread out across Zulu land. My initial post was just stating if the camp was fortified what could have happened. If I was in LC's place I would have done the same thing, I would have never risked it without knowing the location of all Zulu forces. Of course, I would not have separated the army in the first place. All I am stating is that the camp was ridiculously set up. Which is probably common knowledge by now. I am new to the Anglo Zulu War and I am gaining knowledge everyday, being an American most people over here do not care are about things like this which is a shame, I did not grow up with this type of history, so I apologies if I have brought up old topics and something that has already been disproved. I am in the process of reading both of Lt. Col Mike Snook's books, which are awesome by the way.

P.S. Even though I am an American I consider myself a Loyalist.

Commander Howse

Hi Mason .
There were actually 5 columns which formed the invasion , Number 1 Column under Pearson which made its way to Eshowe had 4,750 men which only 1,517 were Imp Infantry , No2 Column under Durnford which made its way to Isandlwana on the morning of the battle had nil Imp Infantry , Number 3 Under the command of Glyn ( but LC really commanded ) , number 4 column commanded by Wood made up of 2,278 men of which only 1,502 were Imp Infantry , and lastly number 5 column commanded by Rowlands V.C had 1,565 men of which only 834 were Imp Infantry . The Grand Total of the invading force numbered 17,929 men of which only 5,128 were Imperial Infantry . In the lead up to the invasion LC did ask for more Imp Infantry and also Imperial Cavalry , he request was denied . Hope this helps Mason .  
Cheers 90th.  

Masson many have been in your situation before arriving at this forum, it is normal ...

Should read the books of Messrs. David Jackson and Julian Whybra, and before anything else, it will save you time and money ...

If you're an American, and you consider yourself a loyaliste. The War of Independence of the United States is not finished  

Cheers

Pascal

90th thank you for the information it has help alot, and Pascal whenever the crown is ready to take United States back I will be here to serve.

Thank You
Commander Howse

Masson ,You'll be there to serve what   Who  and what   It is Britain that serves the United States since 1942, right ?

I still have hopes for the old ways, the British Empire will rise again.  

Commander Howse

To get back on topic LC went ahead with the 2/24th, mounted Infantry and 4 guns of # 3 column, left 1/24th of # 3 Column in Camp, and sent # 2 Column to support the Camp. LC did this because of Major Dartnell's intelligence. The Zulus went around LC and attacked the weaker and more vulnerable camp at Isandlwana. This left LC with about 6,600 Men, this would have been enough to relieve the camp. This of course is if the camp was properly fortified or if it was properly commanded, which it wasn't. With my understanding, it was Durnford's men who were the cause of the British lines to break because Durnford did not properly establish a clear line of ammunition supplies. This resulted in the # 2 Column to fall back allowing the Zulus to flank and crush the British lines. IF Durnford established a way to be resupplied with ammunition, would the British been able to win or at least out last the Zulu attack at Isandlwana?


Thank You
Commander Howse

Commander Howse wrote:

I still have hopes for the old ways, the British Empire will rise again.  

Commander Howse

Have to beat Australia first  

Commander Howse wrote:

To get back on topic LC went ahead with the 2/24th, mounted Infantry and 4 guns of # 3 column, left 1/24th of # 3 Column in Camp, and sent # 2 Column to support the Camp. LC did this because of Major Dartnell's intelligence. The Zulus went around LC and attacked the weaker and more vulnerable camp at Isandlwana. This left LC with about 6,600 Men, this would have been enough to relieve the camp. This of course is if the camp was properly fortified or if it was properly commanded, which it wasn't. With my understanding, it was Durnford's men who were the cause of the British lines to break because Durnford did not properly establish a clear line of ammunition supplies. This resulted in the # 2 Column to fall back allowing the Zulus to flank and crush the British lines. IF Durnford established a way to be resupplied with ammunition, would the British been able to win or at least out last the Zulu attack at Isandlwana?


Thank You
Commander Howse    

To answer a couple of your questions

The Zulus were allready 'round' Chelmsford before he left the camp on the 22nd. Lt Brown ran into the impi on the move on the afternoon of the 21st heading for the Ngwebini valley. The conjecture is that Dartnel spotted the tail end scouts/guards and thought he had come across the main impi. He had, but they were not waiting around to give battle but rather heading to their pre determined lay over point
No matter how many men Chelmsford had they were split over the Phindo hills and Mangeni plain chasing shadows. ( The army they thought they were chasing was long gone, what was left was the rear guard left behind to mke sure the impi was safe from detection.
There was no time to get them together and march back to the camp and get there in time to have any effect.
Durnford left the camp before his ammunition wagons had arrived from RD.
Durnfords forces were being outflanked, this with the ammo shortage was a contributary factor, not the only one, to the defeat.
Even if Durnford had enough ammo the left horn was still moving behind the Nkengeni Ridge under cover. He was minutes away from being surrounded.

Its impossible to attribute a single instance or cause for the defeat, every forum member has his own, perfectly valid, reason for attributing blame. In reallity its a combination of all of them.

Or possibly if you look for one reason alone, try this one.................... They were out smarted by a brilliant General.

Cheers

springbok9

Commander Howse wrote:

I still have hopes for the old ways, the British Empire will rise again.

springbok9 wrote:Have to beat Australia first

and the South Africa in second LOL LOL LOL

springbok I have to agree, I think the main reason to sum up all of the reasons of the lost would have to be the Birtish Arrogance. That sums it all up. If the camp was fortified it would have been safe period. A good example is Battle of Khambula, the camp was fortified and they were able to hold off a lot more Zulus with just about the same number of men defending it. Only reason the camp was fortified was because of the news of the Isandlwana disaster. The British arrogance was wiped clean after Isandlwana, and the campaign from then on was more successful, after regrouping.

PS Come on guys, are we not on the same side?  

Commander Howse

Masson writes :Only reason the camp was fortified at Kambula , was because of the news of the Isandlwana disaster. Masson , You've got it !  

Masson writes :The British arrogance was wiped clean after Isandlwana... You omissions Intombi and Hlobane !

Cheers

Pascal

Loving you pascal. you are provocative, and relentless, clever man.
you dont bat alone.All. David Jackson. Isandhlwana. the resources
re-examined.all you will ever need to know\say about this brilliant
but heartbreaking Zulu victory.
cheers xhosa2000

Any ways, Xhosa, to beat the Zulu royal army, without laager, in square or not, it takes a minimum of 25 British imperial infantry companies, in serried ranks ...

Cheers

Pascal

In my opinion the Isandlwana Battle has been over analyzed. LC split the column #3 up sent Col Durnford to support the camp. When he arrived at Isandlwana he heard that there were reports of Zulus around. As a good officer who commands mounted soldiers, he scouts out around the camp. Col Pulline, who was put in charge of the camp should have done something to better secure the camp. When reports of the enemy start to come in a good commander prepares. Unfortunately Durnford's men ran into the whole Zulu army and forces a premature action from the Zulus that wasn't suppose to happen until the next day. This catches the 1st/24th and Durnford off-guard and not ready for this type of battle. This results in the camp being overtaken. If Durnford's men did not come across the Zulu army, which is not there fault, they did what any good officer and mounted soldier would have done, 1st/24th would have broken camp and meet up with the rest of # 3 column. This would have resulted in the Zulus attacking of 7 to 8 thousand British Soldiers.  

    What I am trying to get at is when the battle started there was nothing Durnford or Pulline could have done to change the outcome. The camp belonged to Pulline, Durnford arrived that morning and went out to scout just like any good mounted infantry/cavalry officer would have done. The blame if there is one would have to go to Pulline for not better securing the camp in the face of enemy movement reports. I do not fault Pulline for not making any redoubts or trenches, since it was a temp camp, but he still could have reduce the size of the camp, which would have resulted in less ground to protect. This would have also resulted in better ammunition logistics. That is my opinion.



Commander Howse

But!! If Durnford hadn't sent out the scouts, they would not have discovered the Zulus and opened fire on them. According to Zulu customs they wasn't going to attack on the 22nd. Pulleine would have pack up camp and joined up with Chelmsford. 

Yes, but the scouts did not know that. Durnford rode into the camp and was informed that there were reports of Zulu in the area. Any good officer would have sent scouts out to report back the location of the enemy. They did not know it was the entire Zulu army. They assumed that the main army was ahead of them where LC was heading. You can not blame Durnford for that. Durnford probably thought that the report of Zulus that were around the camp were flankers or scouts. That is probably why Pulline did not take greater action to secure the camp.  

Commander Howse

Durnford knew that large numbers of Zulus had been seen around the camp prior to his arrival. Armed with this knowledge should he have not ordered the wagons be laargered, ammo boxes opened and ammo station deployed.Durnford knew the ways of the Zulu, but for whatever reason he decided he wanted to be a one man army?

Totally agree with Durnford being ordered to the came to reinforce! Makes sense!

Durnford probably did not think the whole Zulu army was the reports of Zulus being around the camp. Durnford most likely felt that he could handle the situation before him. Again He most likely thought that the Zulu Army was in front of LC at the time. Durnford was a glory hunter that would explain his eagerness to go towards the reports. Durnford taking over the command at the camp is still debatable. Many still think he was sent to reinforce the camp not to take command of it. I still think that any officer would have sent scouts and went on a scouting mission in the presents of enemy movement reports. You can not fault someone for doing there job even if it caused a premature action from the Zulu.

Commander Howse

Bearing in mind, that LC had just divided his force, it would make sense to have a mounted unit reinforce the camp. Durnford being in the the Royal Engineers would have been expected to put his engineering knowledge to some use, as like Lt Chard at RD.

Going by many of the topics on the forum, it appears it's was army protocol that Durnford would have assumed command on his arrival, there are witnesses to confirm he did take command!

Nothing happen in the camp, until Durnford arrived on the scene, the problem I have with the scouts "Raw" they would have see the masses of Zulus in the valley, yet Raw thought it was a good idea to engage them ? He might just has well whacked a Hornets nest with a stick!

I also wonder at what point was it realised that horses were not really appropriate for the terrain in and around Isandlwana. We have many accounts that state the Zulus were able to keep up with riders and in some cases take over them?

I beleive something happen between the two officers, with led to no cooperation between the two.?

I agree with everything you said. Again Durnford was a glory hunter, this would most likely shutoff his engineering side of him. Again both Pulleine and Durnford most likely did not realize what they were up against until it was to late. What Raw did was not the right course of action, they should have stayed low and reported their finding back to the camp. I would hope at this time the camp would have been better secured. They would have sent a report to LC to return immediately or send back orders. Chard knew about Isandlwana before the attacks at RD and with a lot less troops then what was Isandlwana it would have been common sense to fortified the mission at RD. Pulleine stayed behind at the camp when Durnford left to scout the area. Durnford would not had the time to order the camp to be fortified. Again he felt the real threat was further ahead in the direction of LC.

Commander Howse

Hi Mason.
In reply to your post at 12.07 today , your estimate of the zulus facing 7 to 8 thousand troops is way off the mark ! .
If you see my posts in reply to you in this thread you'll see I sent you the numbers for LC's Column , again, he only had 4,709 men , of which only 1,295 were British Infantry , the rest were Native and Colonial troops , from memory well over 2,000 were Black Troops ! . He had very little hope of saving the camp even if they were all there together , he had to have fortified , but , as Isandlwana was supposed to only be a stopover there was no way he was going to fortify ! .
Cheers 90th.  

Commander Howse wrote :"Col Pulline, who was put in charge of the camp should have done something to better secure the camp.When reports of the enemy start to come in a good commander prepares."

False! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...

Commander Howse wrote :..."from the Zulus that wasn't suppose to happen until the next day"

False, the Zulu mocked such property considerations, they waited for the right moment

Commander Howse wrote :..."This would have resulted in the Zulus attacking of 7 to 8 thousand British Soldiers. "

False !Which would, nothing changed, Without laager or square , it takes 25  british imperial infantry companies in close order, at minimum, to defeat the Zulu royal army ...

Commander Howse wrote :"The blame if there is one would have to go to Pulline for not better securing the camp in the face of enemy movement reports. I do not fault Pulline for not making any redoubts or trenches, since it was a temp camp, but he still could have reduce the size of the camp, which would have resulted in less ground to protect. This would have also resulted in better ammunition logistics. That is my opinion."

  False ! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...

Chard1879 wrote: "But If Durnford Had not feel out the Scouts, They Would not Have Discovered the Zulus and opened fire on 'em According to Zulu customs They Was not going to attack on the 22nd Pulleine Would Have pack up. camp and joined up with Chelmsford. "

  False ! They would still have attacked that day, more in the moment or the attack was beginning, Pulleine received the message from LC to break camp ... If the Zulu attack had taken place on the troops of  the camp walking to join LC, the defeat would have been greater, and, in addition, there would be no fighting in RD ...

Commander Howse wrote : "Yes, but the scouts did not know that. Durnford rode into the camp and was informed that there were reports of Zulu in the area. Any good officer would have sent scouts out to report back the location of the enemy. They did not know it was the entire Zulu army. They assumed that the main army was ahead of them where LC was heading. You can not blame Durnford for that. Durnford probably thought that the report of Zulus that were around the camp were flankers or scouts. That is probably why Pulline did not take greater action to secure the camp."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...

Ulundi wrote: "Durnford Knew That broad numbers of Zulus HAD beens seen around the camp Prior to His arrival Armed with this knowledge have-nots shoulds he ordered the car be laargered, ammo boxes and ammo station opened deployed.Durnford Knew the ways of the Zulu goal for whatever reason he Decided he wanted to be a one man army? Totally agree with Durnford Being ordered to the cam to Reinforce! Makes sense! "


  False ! LC forbade any laager and infantry square was considered old-fashioned before Issandhlwana ... Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing and Pulleine has obeyed exactly thetactical recommendations that LC indicated, if Zulu attack ...

Commander Howsewrote : "Durnford was a glory hunter that would explain his eagerness to go towards the reports."

 False ! The glory hunter was LC ...

Commander Howse wrote : "Durnford taking over the command at the camp is still debatable. Many still think he was sent to reinforce the camp not to take command of it. I still think that any officer would have sent scouts and went on a scouting mission in the presents of enemy movement reports."

  False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Commander Howse : " You can not fault someone for doing there job even if it caused a premature action from the Zulu."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...

Ulundi wrote :"Bearing in mind, that LC had just divided his force, it would make sense to have a mounted unit reinforce the camp. Durnford being in the the Royal Engineers would have been expected to put his engineering knowledge to some use, as like Lt Chard at RD."

 False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Ulundi wrote :"Going by many of the topics on the forum, it appears it's was army protocol that Durnford would have assumed command on his arrival, there are witnesses to confirm he did take command!"


 False ! Pulleine kept the command, otherwise ,LC would indicate this to Durnford and Pulleine ! Durnford was just passing by the camp to join LC, but he stayed too long ...

Ulundi wrote :" yet Raw thought it was a good idea to engage them ? He might just has well whacked a Hornets nest with a stick!"

 False ! Raw has not taken the Zulu! It is a regiment of the umCijo corp, which is detected, launched the attack, Raw  horsemen of have only to respond ...

Ulundi wrote: "I wonder at what points aussi it was Realised That Were not really Appropriate horses for the land in and around Isandlwana WE HAVE many accounts state the Zulus That Were ble to keep up with riders and in some cases take over 'em.? "

 False ! Only in very rough terrain, the Zulus are not supermen !

Ulundi wrote: "I beleive something happen betweens the two officers, with led to no cooperation betweens the two.?"

 False ! But he did not have to cooperate because Durnford had to leave the camp to enhance LC and Pulleine was the camp commander "

Commander Howse wrote :" Again Durnford was a glory hunter"

False ! The glory hunter was LC ...

Commander Howse wrote :"They would have sent a report to LC to return immediately or send back orders."

But LC would not be back in time or he would have thought of an exaggeration of Durnford ... ...

Commander Howse wrote : "it Would Have beens common sense to the task at RD fortified."

 False! The entry into Zululand was an offensive operation, They Did not Have To Strengthen R & D! Especially without orders of LC! And with what troops? Troops of the camp?? In addition, it takes a while to go of Issandhlwana to RD ...

Commander Howse wrote : "Would not Durnford Had the time to order the camp to be fortified."

 False! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen it and all defensive structures were prohibited by LC ...

Cheers

Pascal

Of course these are only Pascals theroies?

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Commander Howse wrote :"Col Pulline, who was put in charge of the camp should have done something to better secure the camp.When reports of the enemy start to come in a good commander prepares."

False! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...
But surely as a senior colonel in a line regiment we could expect Pullein to use a bit more tactical nouse?

Commander Howse wrote :..."from the Zulus that wasn't suppose to happen until the next day"

False, the Zulu mocked such property considerations, they waited for the right moment
Yeah I would agree that "cometh the hour ets"

Commander Howse wrote :..."This would have resulted in the Zulus attacking of 7 to 8 thousand British Soldiers. "

False !Which would, nothing changed, Without laager or square , it takes 25  british imperial infantry companies in close order, at minimum, to defeat the Zulu royal army ...
I dont know where the 7 to 8000 would have come from?

Commander Howse wrote :"The blame if there is one would have to go to Pulline for not better securing the camp in the face of enemy movement reports. I do not fault Pulline for not making any redoubts or trenches, since it was a temp camp, but he still could have reduce the size of the camp, which would have resulted in less ground to protect. This would have also resulted in better ammunition logistics. That is my opinion."

  False ! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...
Pascal he fought a good part of the fight a long way from his best defensive position and his last orders were to act on the defensive.

Chard1879 wrote: "But If Durnford Had not feel out the Scouts, They Would not Have Discovered the Zulus and opened fire on 'em According to Zulu customs They Was not going to attack on the 22nd Pulleine Would Have pack up. camp and joined up with Chelmsford. "

  False ! They would still have attacked that day, more in the moment or the attack was beginning, Pulleine received the message from LC to break camp ... If the Zulu attack had taken place on the troops of  the camp walking to join LC, the defeat would have been greater, and, in addition, there would be no fighting in RD ...
Durnford re acted to the situation, the last information he got was: "the Zulus re retiring"

Commander Howse wrote : "Yes, but the scouts did not know that. Durnford rode into the camp and was informed that there were reports of Zulu in the area. Any good officer would have sent scouts out to report back the location of the enemy. They did not know it was the entire Zulu army. They assumed that the main army was ahead of them where LC was heading. You can not blame Durnford for that. Durnford probably thought that the report of Zulus that were around the camp were flankers or scouts. That is probably why Pulline did not take greater action to secure the camp."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...
They rode over a ridge and saw the army, the zulu obviusly saw them quickly because they fired first.

Ulundi wrote: "Durnford Knew That broad numbers of Zulus HAD beens seen around the camp Prior to His arrival Armed with this knowledge have-nots shoulds he ordered the car be laargered, ammo boxes and ammo station opened deployed.Durnford Knew the ways of the Zulu goal for whatever reason he Decided he wanted to be a one man army? Totally agree with Durnford Being ordered to the cam to Reinforce! Makes sense! "

66[color=#ff66ff]ff]Ulundi there is no truth to that statement, Durnford was ordered to the camp, period. More than happy for you to show me any information that he was ordered to re inforce the camp.

  False ! LC forbade any laager and infantry square was considered old-fashioned before Issandhlwana ... Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing and Pulleine has obeyed exactly thetactical recommendations that LC indicated, if Zulu attack ...

Commander Howsewrote : "Durnford was a glory hunter that would explain his eagerness to go towards the reports."

 False ! The glory hunter was LC ...
Durnford was gung ho, no doubt about it.

Commander Howse wrote : "Durnford taking over the command at the camp is still debatable. Many still think he was sent to reinforce the camp not to take command of it. I still think that any officer would have sent scouts and went on a scouting mission in the presents of enemy movement reports."

  False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Commander Howse : " You can not fault someone for doing there job even if it caused a premature action from the Zulu."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...

Ulundi wrote :"Bearing in mind, that LC had just divided his force, it would make sense to have a mounted unit reinforce the camp. Durnford being in the the Royal Engineers would have been expected to put his engineering knowledge to some use, as like Lt Chard at RD."

 False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Ulundi wrote :"Going by many of the topics on the forum, it appears it's was army protocol that Durnford would have assumed command on his arrival, there are witnesses to confirm he did take command!"


 False ! Pulleine kept the command, otherwise ,LC would indicate this to Durnford and Pulleine ! Durnford was just passing by the camp to join LC, but he stayed too long ...

Command was GIVEN by Pullein and declined by Durnford.

Ulundi wrote :" yet Raw thought it was a good idea to engage them ? He might just has well whacked a Hornets nest with a stick!"

 False ! Raw has not taken the Zulu! It is a regiment of the umCijo corp, which is detected, launched the attack, Raw  horsemen of have only to respond ...

Raw didnt fire first, the Zulu did. Is it not therefore more correct to say the zulu engaged Raw?

Ulundi wrote: "I wonder at what points aussi it was Realised That Were not really Appropriate horses for the land in and around Isandlwana WE HAVE many accounts state the Zulus That Were ble to keep up with riders and in some cases take over 'em.? "

 False ! Only in very rough terrain, the Zulus are not supermen !

Ulundi Those accounts relate to the Fugitives trail. Dont forgeet Gardner stated in his evidence that he was of the opinion that a squadron of Cavalry would have turned the left horn.

Ulundi wrote: "I beleive something happen betweens the two officers, with led to no cooperation betweens the two.?"

 False ! But he did not have to cooperate because Durnford had to leave the camp to enhance LC and Pulleine was the camp commander "

Ulundi I pretty much agree, definite personality clash there.

Commander Howse wrote :" Again Durnford was a glory hunter"

False ! The glory hunter was LC ...

Commander Howse wrote :"They would have sent a report to LC to return immediately or send back orders."

But LC would not be back in time or he would have thought of an exaggeration of Durnford ... ...

Commander Howse wrote : "it Would Have beens common sense to the task at RD fortified."

 False! The entry into Zululand was an offensive operation, They Did not Have To Strengthen R & D! Especially without orders of LC! And with what troops? Troops of the camp?? In addition, it takes a while to go of Issandhlwana to RD ...

Commander Howse wrote : "Would not Durnford Had the time to order the camp to be fortified."

 False! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen it and all defensive structures were prohibited by LC ...

Cheers

Pascal

Just to stir the pot a little

Cheers

LOL It astonished me that there have not others agree with me !

springbok9 wrote:

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Commander Howse wrote :"Col Pulline, who was put in charge of the camp should have done something to better secure the camp.When reports of the enemy start to come in a good commander prepares."

False! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...
But surely as a senior colonel in a line regiment we could expect Pullein to use a bit more tactical nouse?

Possibly, we do have Garder advising Pulleine to Disobay LC orders as he wasn't aware of the situation at the camp.

Commander Howse wrote :..."from the Zulus that wasn't suppose to happen until the next day"

False, the Zulu mocked such property considerations, they waited for the right moment
Yeah I would agree that "cometh the hour ets"

But we do have various Zulu account that confirm their intentions!

Commander Howse wrote :..."This would have resulted in the Zulus attacking of 7 to 8 thousand British Soldiers. "

False !Which would, nothing changed, Without laager or square , it takes 25  british imperial infantry companies in close order, at minimum, to defeat the Zulu royal army ...
I dont know where the 7 to 8000 would have come from?

Commander Howse wrote :"The blame if there is one would have to go to Pulline for not better securing the camp in the face of enemy movement reports. I do not fault Pulline for not making any redoubts or trenches, since it was a temp camp, but he still could have reduce the size of the camp, which would have resulted in less ground to protect. This would have also resulted in better ammunition logistics. That is my opinion."

  False ! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...
Pascal he fought a good part of the fight a long way from his best defensive position and his last orders were to act on the defensive.

Chard1879 wrote: "But If Durnford Had not feel out the Scouts, They Would not Have Discovered the Zulus and opened fire on 'em According to Zulu customs They Was not going to attack on the 22nd Pulleine Would Have pack up. camp and joined up with Chelmsford. "

  False ! They would still have attacked that day, more in the moment or the attack was beginning, Pulleine received the message from LC to break camp ... If the Zulu attack had taken place on the troops of  the camp walking to join LC, the defeat would have been greater, and, in addition, there would be no fighting in RD ...
Durnford re acted to the situation, the last information he got was: "the Zulus re retiring"

Speculation?

Commander Howse wrote : "Yes, but the scouts did not know that. Durnford rode into the camp and was informed that there were reports of Zulu in the area. Any good officer would have sent scouts out to report back the location of the enemy. They did not know it was the entire Zulu army. They assumed that the main army was ahead of them where LC was heading. You can not blame Durnford for that. Durnford probably thought that the report of Zulus that were around the camp were flankers or scouts. That is probably why Pulline did not take greater action to secure the camp."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...
They rode over a ridge and saw the army, the zulu obviusly saw them quickly because they fired first.

Again we have Zulu accounts that confirm the white men fired on them!

Ulundi wrote: "Durnford Knew That broad numbers of Zulus HAD beens seen around the camp Prior to His arrival Armed with this knowledge have-nots shoulds he ordered the car be laargered, ammo boxes and ammo station opened deployed.Durnford Knew the ways of the Zulu goal for whatever reason he Decided he wanted to be a one man army? Totally agree with Durnford Being ordered to the cam to Reinforce! Makes sense! "

66ff]Ulundi there is no truth to that statement, Durnford was ordered to the camp, period. More than happy for you to show me any information that he was ordered to re inforce the camp.

What else would LC have intended for Durnford, if it was wasn't to reinforce the camp. Bearing in mind LC was taking half the force with him.

  False ! LC forbade any laager and infantry square was considered old-fashioned before Issandhlwana ... Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing and Pulleine has obeyed exactly thetactical recommendations that LC indicated, if Zulu attack ...


Commander Howsewrote : "Durnford was a glory hunter that would explain his eagerness to go towards the reports."

Go with that, !!  Along with a Drinker, and Gambler.

 False ! The glory hunter was LC ...
Durnford was gung ho, no doubt about it.

Commander Howse wrote : "Durnford taking over the command at the camp is still debatable. Many still think he was sent to reinforce the camp not to take command of it. I still think that any officer would have sent scouts and went on a scouting mission in the presents of enemy movement reports."

  False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Move to the camp end of!

Commander Howse : " You can not fault someone for doing there job even if it caused a premature action from the Zulu."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...

Ulundi wrote :"Bearing in mind, that LC had just divided his force, it would make sense to have a mounted unit reinforce the camp. Durnford being in the the Royal Engineers would have been expected to put his engineering knowledge to some use, as like Lt Chard at RD."

 False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Ulundi wrote :"Going by many of the topics on the forum, it appears it's was army protocol that Durnford would have assumed command on his arrival, there are witnesses to confirm he did take command!"


 False ! Pulleine kept the command, otherwise ,LC would indicate this to Durnford and Pulleine ! Durnford was just passing by the camp to join LC, but he stayed too long ...

Command was GIVEN by Pullein and declined by Durnford.

Durnford took command, confirmed. Handed it back when things turn ugly, and attempted to leave,


Ulundi wrote :" yet Raw thought it was a good idea to engage them ? He might just has well whacked a Hornets nest with a stick!"

 False ! Raw has not taken the Zulu! It is a regiment of the umCijo corp, which is detected, launched the attack, Raw  horsemen of have only to respond ...

Raw didnt fire first, the Zulu did. Is it not therefore more correct to say the zulu engaged Raw?

Raws men did engage the Zulu first, they drew first blood that day at Isandlwana.

Ulundi wrote: "I wonder at what points aussi it was Realised That Were not really Appropriate horses for the land in and around Isandlwana WE HAVE many accounts state the Zulus That Were ble to keep up with riders and in some cases take over 'em.? "

 False ! Only in very rough terrain, the Zulus are not supermen !

They were supermen on that day, drugs have that effect!

Ulundi Those accounts relate to the Fugitives trail. Dont forgeet Gardner stated in his evidence that he was of the opinion that a squadron of Cavalry would have turned the left horn.

Ulundi wrote: "I beleive something happen betweens the two officers, with led to no cooperation betweens the two.?"

 False ! But he did not have to cooperate because Durnford had to leave the camp to enhance LC and Pulleine was the camp commander "

Ulundi I pretty much agree, definite personality clash there.

Doesn't matter both these officers failed to protect the men and the camp.

Commander Howse wrote :" Again Durnford was a glory hunter"

False ! The glory hunter was LC ...

Commander Howse wrote :"They would have sent a report to LC to return immediately or send back orders."

But LC would not be back in time or he would have thought of an exaggeration of Durnford ... ...

Commander Howse wrote : "it Would Have beens common sense to the task at RD fortified."

 False! The entry into Zululand was an offensive operation, They Did not Have To Strengthen R & D! Especially without orders of LC! And with what troops? Troops of the camp?? In addition, it takes a while to go of Issandhlwana to RD ...

They were military minded at RD and worked as a team.

Commander Howse wrote : "Would not Durnford Had the time to order the camp to be fortified."

Anything would have been better than nothing?

 False! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen it and all defensive structures were prohibited by LC ...

When a column is acting SEPARATELY in an enemy's country I am quite ready to give its commander every latitude, and would certainly expect him to disobey any orders he might receive from me, if information which he obtained showed that it.

Cheers

Pascal

Just to stir the pot a little

Cheers

CTSG in Light Blue!

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

springbok9 wrote:

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Commander Howse wrote :"Col Pulline, who was put in charge of the camp should have done something to better secure the camp.When reports of the enemy start to come in a good commander prepares."

False! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...
But surely as a senior colonel in a line regiment we could expect Pullein to use a bit more tactical nouse?

Possibly, we do have Garder advising Pulleine to Disobay LC orders as he wasn't aware of the situation at the camp.

Commander Howse wrote :..."from the Zulus that wasn't suppose to happen until the next day"

False, the Zulu mocked such property considerations, they waited for the right moment
Yeah I would agree that "cometh the hour ets"

But we do have various Zulu account that confirm their intentions!

Once they moved out of the valley the impi was committed, Tyshingwayo was a clever man.

Commander Howse wrote :..."This would have resulted in the Zulus attacking of 7 to 8 thousand British Soldiers. "

False !Which would, nothing changed, Without laager or square , it takes 25  british imperial infantry companies in close order, at minimum, to defeat the Zulu royal army ...
I dont know where the 7 to 8000 would have come from?

Commander Howse wrote :"The blame if there is one would have to go to Pulline for not better securing the camp in the face of enemy movement reports. I do not fault Pulline for not making any redoubts or trenches, since it was a temp camp, but he still could have reduce the size of the camp, which would have resulted in less ground to protect. This would have also resulted in better ammunition logistics. That is my opinion."

  False ! Pulleine has obeyed exactly tactical instructions left by LC.No initiatives have expected from a man like this one ...
Pascal he fought a good part of the fight a long way from his best defensive position and his last orders were to act on the defensive.

Chard1879 wrote: "But If Durnford Had not feel out the Scouts, They Would not Have Discovered the Zulus and opened fire on 'em According to Zulu customs They Was not going to attack on the 22nd Pulleine Would Have pack up. camp and joined up with Chelmsford. "

  False ! They would still have attacked that day, more in the moment or the attack was beginning, Pulleine received the message from LC to break camp ... If the Zulu attack had taken place on the troops of  the camp walking to join LC, the defeat would have been greater, and, in addition, there would be no fighting in RD ...
Durnford re acted to the situation, the last information he got was: "the Zulus re retiring"

Speculation?

Fact

Commander Howse wrote : "Yes, but the scouts did not know that. Durnford rode into the camp and was informed that there were reports of Zulu in the area. Any good officer would have sent scouts out to report back the location of the enemy. They did not know it was the entire Zulu army. They assumed that the main army was ahead of them where LC was heading. You can not blame Durnford for that. Durnford probably thought that the report of Zulus that were around the camp were flankers or scouts. That is probably why Pulline did not take greater action to secure the camp."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...
They rode over a ridge and saw the army, the zulu obviusly saw them quickly because they fired first.

Again we have Zulu accounts that confirm the white men fired on them!

We have accounts that the Zulu fired first.

Ulundi wrote: "Durnford Knew That broad numbers of Zulus HAD beens seen around the camp Prior to His arrival Armed with this knowledge have-nots shoulds he ordered the car be laargered, ammo boxes and ammo station opened deployed.Durnford Knew the ways of the Zulu goal for whatever reason he Decided he wanted to be a one man army? Totally agree with Durnford Being ordered to the cam to Reinforce! Makes sense! "

66ff]Ulundi there is no truth to that statement, Durnford was ordered to the camp, period. More than happy for you to show me any information that he was ordered to re inforce the camp.

What else would LC have intended for Durnford, if it was wasn't to reinforce the camp. Bearing in mind LC was taking half the force with him.
LC was in such a hurrey he hardly bothered to leave any orders at all. ( Clery )

  False ! LC forbade any laager and infantry square was considered old-fashioned before Issandhlwana ... Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing and Pulleine has obeyed exactly thetactical recommendations that LC indicated, if Zulu attack ...


Commander Howsewrote : "Durnford was a glory hunter that would explain his eagerness to go towards the reports."

Go with that, !!  Along with a Drinker, and Gambler.

You forgot womaniser

 False ! The glory hunter was LC ...
Durnford was gung ho, no doubt about it.

Commander Howse wrote : "Durnford taking over the command at the camp is still debatable. Many still think he was sent to reinforce the camp not to take command of it. I still think that any officer would have sent scouts and went on a scouting mission in the presents of enemy movement reports."

  False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Move to the camp end of!

Not quite

Commander Howse : " You can not fault someone for doing there job even if it caused a premature action from the Zulu."

The troubleshooting, is that the horsemen of Raw were not discreet, it was in recognition, but behaved like a hunting deer...

Ulundi wrote :"Bearing in mind, that LC had just divided his force, it would make sense to have a mounted unit reinforce the camp. Durnford being in the the Royal Engineers would have been expected to put his engineering knowledge to some use, as like Lt Chard at RD."

 False ! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen, he was just passing by the camp to join LC...

Ulundi wrote :"Going by many of the topics on the forum, it appears it's was army protocol that Durnford would have assumed command on his arrival, there are witnesses to confirm he did take command!"


 False ! Pulleine kept the command, otherwise ,LC would indicate this to Durnford and Pulleine ! Durnford was just passing by the camp to join LC, but he stayed too long ...

Command was GIVEN by Pullein and declined by Durnford.

Durnford took command, confirmed. Handed it back when things turn ugly, and attempted to leave,

When things turned Ugly? What period would that be now?


Ulundi wrote :" yet Raw thought it was a good idea to engage them ? He might just has well whacked a Hornets nest with a stick!"

 False ! Raw has not taken the Zulu! It is a regiment of the umCijo corp, which is detected, launched the attack, Raw  horsemen of have only to respond ...

Raw didnt fire first, the Zulu did. Is it not therefore more correct to say the zulu engaged Raw?

Raws men did engage the Zulu first, they drew first blood that day at Isandlwana.

Ulundi wrote: "I wonder at what points aussi it was Realised That Were not really Appropriate horses for the land in and around Isandlwana WE HAVE many accounts state the Zulus That Were ble to keep up with riders and in some cases take over 'em.? "

 False ! Only in very rough terrain, the Zulus are not supermen !

They were supermen on that day, drugs have that effect!
There you go, the key to the day. If the zulu was going to attack they would have gone through there cleansing etc allready, included their 'spiffs'. However if they werent going to attack that pleasure would have been reserved for the next day. So if they were suprised then...no drugs !

Ulundi Those accounts relate to the Fugitives trail. Dont forgeet Gardner stated in his evidence that he was of the opinion that a squadron of Cavalry would have turned the left horn.

Ulundi wrote: "I beleive something happen betweens the two officers, with led to no cooperation betweens the two.?"

 False ! But he did not have to cooperate because Durnford had to leave the camp to enhance LC and Pulleine was the camp commander "

Ulundi I pretty much agree, definite personality clash there.

Doesn't matter both these officers failed to protect the men and the camp.

In fact the whole command failed the men.

Commander Howse wrote :" Again Durnford was a glory hunter"

False ! The glory hunter was LC ...

Commander Howse wrote :"They would have sent a report to LC to return immediately or send back orders."

But LC would not be back in time or he would have thought of an exaggeration of Durnford ... ...

Commander Howse wrote : "it Would Have beens common sense to the task at RD fortified."

 False! The entry into Zululand was an offensive operation, They Did not Have To Strengthen R & D! Especially without orders of LC! And with what troops? Troops of the camp?? In addition, it takes a while to go of Issandhlwana to RD ...

They were military minded at RD and worked as a team.
They aslo had Dalton.

Commander Howse wrote : "Would not Durnford Had the time to order the camp to be fortified."

Anything would have been better than nothing?

 False! Durnford was not in the camp to strengthen it and all defensive structures were prohibited by LC ...

Cheers

Pascal

Just to stir the pot a little

Cheers

CTSG in Light Blue!

To many colors. But my replies are there

Cheers

Apologies old friend, forgot you were colour blind!

I blame Pascal for starting the coloured thing. And you for following him.
Simular to the Durnford and Pulleine sarnario. Not working as a team!

Only did it because I know your fond of brightly coloured birds. 

Far to bloody confusing. again as Pullein and Durnford.

Cheers

Pascal, he's talking about that " Cockatoo" what you like!

90th Number 2 and 3 Column in my research was about 7,800 strong. So, if the Zulus did not attack on that day and Durnford and 1st/24th meet up with LC they would be about that strong when the Zulus attacked.

Commander Howse

Pascal, if Durnford was not a glory seeker, which might be misrepresenting him, he was definitely looking for a fight for his officer resume. He felt that the Anglo Zulu War was his second and might be his last chance to prove himself capable to be a Fighting Officer and not just an Engineer Officer. You can tell this in his letters. He lost all his opportunities due to illnesses and was seeing all his friends and others around him making names for themselves leaving him behind.

Commander Howse

Hi Mason.
I can guarantee you that the forces of No2 Column commanded by Durnford, and No3 Column commanded by Glyn ( In name only , it's common knowledge that L.C was indeed commanding ). In no way, add up to 7 or 8 thousand men . The numbers I gave you in reply to one of your earlier posts on this matter came from ' The Narrative Of The Zulu War ' written and conducted by the Intelligence department of the British Army . Many publications list the strength of the Columns , and if you check them , you'll see that there is no way they add up to the 7 or 8 thousand men as your research suggests .
90th.