How many started?

Subject: How many started? Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:52 pm

Do we have an idea how many men on horseback actually tried to get away via what would later be called Fugitives Drift?
30, 40 or even more?

Subject: How many started Mon Jan 01, 2024 10:20 pm

Hi Stefaan
Impossible to tell ... My guess would be 200 plus Mounted , many killed along the way by Zulu's , falling into Chasms etc , many washed away in the river. There were 70 or so survivors these all being mounted , so I'd expect 200 Plus is a conservative estimate ? .
90th Salute

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:15 am

Gary,

You seem to be only referring European survivors, what of the Natal Native Horse? I think you should reconsider your assessment.

JY

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:29 am

That's a lot of horsemen 90th (Gary). Wouldn't it have been better then to stay together and charge through the Zulus in front of them?
With Neville and the colours in the middle of the pack. Perhaps more of them would have made it then. Of course you would have
needed an experienced officer in command of such a troop to coordinate such a massive charge.

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:31 am

*I mean Melville of course and not Neville.

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:38 am

Stefaan,

I believe that you mean Lieutenant & Adjutant Teignmouth Melvill, 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment.

I personally know of no evidence that supports that Melvill was part of any large group.

JY

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:55 am

Steffan

One thing to consider is that the retreat from Isandlwana was not orgsnised (or at least not the majority of fugitives) - many were civilians

They left the camp at a various times as the opportunity arose or there nerve failed them. Some left in small groups (ie a couple or three at same approximate time), the groups split apart and joined others depending on traffic jams etc.

Also the fugitives trial is not one single track but a wide swathe of land heading in the same direction.

It has been said that some groups of NNH did break-through the Zulus - or rather the Zulus went after easier pickings.

It does seem that Melvill and Coghill were maybe amongst the last to leave camp and the last to attempt to cross the river (but such timings are difficult to determine)...M&C were found near to a couple of other soldiers but I do not believe these were associated with their deaths.

Cheers

Simon

Ps I often feel quite sad for the Fugitives who were killed on the Natal bank.....regardless of if killed by Zulus or maybe Natal Natives......they had done the hard bit....close pursuit, rough terrain, the river....only to fall at the last fence, so to speak....

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 9:41 am

Indeed John I meant Lieutenant & Adjutant Teignmouth Melvill.
Sometimes I type to fast.

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 9:53 am

John Y is quite prickly about the extra 'e'......he's even more prickly because I am registering the rights to it, so that anyone who employs it has to pay me a fee....I've been fair.....he's got the option to buy the 'u' out of Rorke's Drift....

Subject: How many started Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:03 pm

Agreed JY I was basically thinking of Europeans on horseback , many more than my 200 estimate once you add the other mounted personal etc .
Stefaan , it's basically a track , no room at times only single file could be used , and as Simon says Very Happy

, there was no organised retreat over good ground , the ground is terrible , many pitfalls for those who wouldn't have known the country into which they were forced to flee into .
90th

PS JY ... Not sure whom gets the better deal ... you with your Melvill ' e ' or Sime with his Rorke's ' u ' !? hahahahaahah

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:08 pm

Gary: you could always buy a share in "Zulus Fahsands of them" so everything someone puts it on FB, you get royalties.....

Subject: How many started Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:13 pm

YES Sime !! , I like it , especially how many times it was mentioned in the last couple of days ! , Thank God Christmas & New Year is over for another 12 months , it was driving me crazy all the posts about the 2 movies over the weekend etc . Suspect

90th

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:43 pm

Gary,

What two movies would that be?

JY

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:33 pm

Hi Gary, of course I would not have let them charge along Fugitives Drift with 200 or more but
towards the, what was it, left horn (not the one that went behind the Isandlwana mountain) of the Zulu attack.
To take them on with a frontal attack. i don't think the Zulus would form square to oppose such a massive stampede of horses and men.
Of course the 24th on foot would not have been helped very much with such a strategy.
They (the 24th) could have been helped if horses and men after succeeding in passing the Zulus turn back and attack the Zulus from the rear.

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:07 pm

As has been mentioned, apart from one or two units of NNH, the escapees didn't leave in organised bands.

One unit of NNH shot their way through the Zulu right horn and escaped but such mounted units were not for charges, apart from spears they had no melee weapons and there was possibly 3000 Zuius.

Ammunition was running low, majority of NNH white officers had become separated from the men (one had been killed)

These men had been driven from the field - of the 5 units of NNH (around 260ish) I think 120 odd didn't even return to duty - just (if not killed) headed for home...."do not pass go, do not collect £200". Only 30ish were confirmed killed.....they had ceased to be effective combat units (apart from a few groups of men - one of which covered the fugitives crossing the river, for a while)

One unit briefly rallied at Rorkes Drift but fled the Zulu advance, after firing a few shots at them.

Cheers

Simon

Subject: Re: How many started? Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:27 pm

I think you need to be careful about terminologies here.
Using terms like 'units' of NNH will lead only to confusion.
There were 5 troops of NNH at Isandhlwana.
A group of "about 100" NNH broke through the right horn - these men came predominantly from 2 troops (Davies and Henderson's troops) and were armed with rifles. Those of Vause's troop who escaped did so en masse. Raw and Roberts's troops did not. There were 114 confirmed known NNH African survivors.
All 92 (possibly 95) European survivors escaped on horseback

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 23, 2024 5:34 am

Yes of course you are correct, Julian but having wargamed for 40 odd years - sometimes it is hard not slip back into 'old ways'.....

Subject: Re: How many started? Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:10 am

No disrespect was intended. My point was that using 'unit' to mean two different things (Troop and group or crowd) in the same post will confuse newcomers to the site (and I note with pleasure that there are a number of them joined over Xmas).
I should mention that only 30 NNH Africans were later reported as killed; some 123 simply vanished (i.e. were either unrecorded killed or went home never to return).