Isandlwana, Last Stands

No

Read Bassage and Forbes, they were killed in front of the camp near the Donga's.

50 of them near the firing line, could this not have been a rear gaurd action ??

What's the point of reading Bassage and Forbes, if they were both killed Near the donga's.

impi
You really do need to start reading more.
Bassage was part of the first burial party who kept a diary and recorded the burial details.

Archibald Forbes was a well respected journalist.

Nether was killed.

Chard

The questions still stand.

Littlehand

Disingenuous. Those two are mentioned because they stood out, not because they were alone. One cant extract sentences out of context and attempt to apply a differing argument. One cant therefore argue that because Younghusbands flashing sword was mention in exclusivety that his was the only sword, or will you?

Just for a second suppose the arguments put forward are correct that the greater part of the body count in a particular area were dead zulu wearing red coats, then do the maths and tell me where the rest of the troops were. ie: a body count of 70, less approx 35clothes apropriating zulu = 35 missing troops? Apply that to the rest of the large body groups. Thats a large amount of missing bodies.


All

Not one shred of proof to back up this argument, innuendo, misinformation yes.

24th

The view from Shiyane to the mountain is excelent, the view from Shiyane down the Mzinyathi valley is excellent. There is no real discrepancy in the attack times at RD. The view down the valley from Shiyane gave the observers a view of the zulu impi, the time frame from there is very clear. That fixes the time for the balance of the observations within a pretty confined frame.

There were other observations from various troops out on the plain, Brown etc that also fix the time frame.

Comes back to the question really, how could the fight take so long if the soldiers were fighting independantly? Even Mike Tyson couldnt hold his own for that length of time. :lol:

Regards

Hi all

Isandhlwana ended well at 16.00 pm ?

But it is on the battlefield itself or between the battlefield and Natal ?

It should be minimum how many men for they are considered as a "last stand" by historian ?

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal you simply cannot put numbers to a last stand, historians will not.

When do you consider the last stand of the Legionaires' at Camrone in 1863 finished?, the last man standing/fighting?.

The last man in Khig in Maiwand?,

Or even John Travers Cornwall at Jutland in 1916, his postumous VC gazette says it all "Boy First Class,John Travers Cornwell remained standing alone at a most exposed post, quietly awaiting orders, until the end of the action, with the gun's crew dead and wounded around him. His age was under sixteen and half years."

Hi Neil

What I wanted to know is if it were not a significant number of soldiers to deserve this appellation.

Cheers

Pascal

impi wrote:

What's the point of reading Bassage and Forbes, if they were both killed Near the donga's.

Bassage was a Corpral, C company, 2/24th. He helped buried the 24th dead in June and kept a record.

Forbes was a war reporter who went to the battle field in May and recorded what he saw.

May was a long time after the Battle. Alot could have happen to the bodies over that period of time. Wild animals & birds, possibly bits being taken for doctoring who knows many things could have happened.

It would be only natural for a person of the same regiment, who may have lost friends or even familey to glamour things up for the sake of the regiment.

What puzzles you about my last post..

It sounded like you thourght Bassgae may be incorrect. There is no evidence for this.

He identified Sergant Shaw, Privates, Latham, Thomas, and White, all of the 2/24th.
The 1/24th was not based on that part of the line.
We know Pope was badly exposed by Durnfords retreat.

Hi all

The zulu's must have gone back to Isandlwana on a number of occasions, I seem to recall that Black went there with some men and was shot at by the zulu's. The zulu's could have taken many things, and moved things around (including bodies) on their visits.

Just a thought, what do others think?

Martin.

They probebly pulled the jackets off, removed boots. No reason to move bodies apart from their own.

Black went a number of times in March, there was a big expedition on the 21st of May, Black buried
the 24th in June. Mainwaring went back in September. Bromhead also went to clear the field.
Boast exumed and reburied everyone in 1883.


Cheers

Hi DB

Well, they would have to move the bodies to get the jackets and other equipment, and also if there were zulu bodies lying underneath the men, they would have to move the soldiers to get the bodies of the zulu's. Don't get me wrong DB, I am not saying that they moved the men all over the battlefield, but they just might have moved a few of them some distance away from where these gallant fellows fell. Also don't forget that there were animals (including the camps dogs that had gone wild), they could have moved bodies, or body parts, around as well. I also wonder how many other scavengers visited the area to see what they could loot from the bodies or take away as trophies, some of the bodies could have ended up being moved well away from where they fell.

Like I say, it's just a thought, but it just might have happened.

Martin.

At the opening stages of the Battle of Isandlwana, the various companies of the indivual regiments no doubt did form up in their normal battle formation or how defined in their standing orders. Their ammo pounces full and the thought of taking on an army of warriors armed with just spears and shields would have seemed an easy task. The sounds of laughter among the troops and the becking on of the warriors may of happened. But they had no way of knowing that they would soon be confronting 20,000 warriors-plus.

My point is " There were no last stands" the Britsih were force to retreat back to the camp not in a steady order but to survive the enviable ending. Those officers that escaped and mentioned in their statement what they saw the various regiments doing, would have only have been witnessed for a few seconds.

What took place after is anyones guess.

Visits paid to the battlefield after the event were not long enough to conduct a complete survey of what actully took place. All visit were short lived due to Zulu activies in the area.

We can post various accounts from various sources, but is up to the indivual wether they believe it or not. The odd thing about these accounts there was no one there to back it up apart from those writing the account.

As Impi points out anyone from the regiment who visited Isandlwana would not have given an accurate account of what they really saw, for the sake of the regiments and familey back home. The British are very good of at making light of the matter.

British accounts relating to the Battle of Isandlwana would have be on the positive side, rather than the negitive.

I stand by my opinion " There were no last stands" like always happy to be corrected.

And to those members who say I'm wrong. Fine but back it up.

Always good to see various opinions on the forum. Looking forward to the replies you may receive Littlehand.

Just been browsing through Jamie's website. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] regarding the last stands.

I see Jamie is carefull to say regarding some of the cains.
"Thought to contain"

Example.

"Pope’s G Company’s final position after falling back from the firing line under steady harassment , looking at Isandlwana. There is no record of any of 2/24th G Company making it back to “The Sadle”. This cairn is thought to mark the graves containing troops of Pope’s 2/24th G Company below it."

Thanks LH. Didn't Know this. Clever this again adds weight to your argument regarding the locations of the various companies burial locations.

Hi Chard .
Its fairly well accepted that most of the cairns if not all are not where the troops actually fell , as many of the bones were collected by those walking the field in 1881 I think it was carrying sacks and collecting what was lying about , these I think were where the resultant cairns came from . I may be wrong , happy to be corrected . I think the Cairns were established by Alfred Boast but am very happy to be corrected . The Boast report is on the forum but I'm in a bit of a hurry as Taking the missus to the casino today so I can win enough to retire and then go to Zululand . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Hopefully we wont be home in an hour or so ' Broke ' . .
cheers 90th.

Black spent a total of over 3 full days on the battle field. Read his report.

Frobes spent over 4 hours there, read his report.

Bassage identifies G company dead, he identifies 4 men from the 2/24th, the 1/24th were no were near this part of the
field, there for if the men are not second battalion then who are they ?


The cairns we see today were made in 1884, when Alfred Boast reburied everyone.

littlehand wrote:

Visits paid to the battlefield after the event were not long enough to conduct a complete survey of what actully took place. All visit were short lived due to Zulu activies in the area.

No evidence for this remark.

DB. If Black had made his report a few days after the Battle it would be taken as conclusive. But he didn't it was months later. And as its been pointed out a lot could have happen to the bodies. If we were completely honest I don't think there is a report anywhere that can show that actual burial plots of the various companies anywhere, there are maps showing where the bones are buried but not who's bones.

LH
The proof has been provided, your just not looking at it.
The fact that there are no real eye witnesses available to testify could and does apply to History per se.

There are a group of denialists that can prove conclusivly that the holocaust never happened. I have a mathematician friend whos party trick is mathematically proving that a wheel cant move.

Your perfectly right to hold an opinion and that I trully respect, it is evident that no amount of discussion will change that, so I leave this particular thread with one last thought.

Ian Knight
David Rattray
Phillip Bam
Ron Lock
Pete Quantrill
Adrian Greaves
Mike Snook
David Jackson
Julian Whybra
Professor Labrand
Creda Muttwa
His highness Prince Gatcha Buthelezi
DCF Moodie
Norris Newman
Frank Emery
Bertram Midford.
Ian Castle
And a host of others

For you to be right all of the above would have to be wrong

Regards

Hi all

Sorry little hand

But when the brave and excellent Pulleine sounded the retreat ,the brave old soldiers of each company will remain more or less in order by withdrawing.

I have the presentiment that there was not too much panic and the men of every units were grouped for the most part, even when the Zulu catching up to massacre them.

That's a last stand and there was Lots of last stands between the initial position of companies and halfway of Natal.

Cheers

Pascal

LH is there any point in trying to pursade you, you dismiss any evidence i post ?

24th, what was the date the report was written ? There was a War on.
Why did everyone who visted the field make the same remarks ?
Why do the Zulu record coming across men in squares ?
Why are there not hundreds more cairns, if the men were not in square ?

Many commentators here are not from Africa and therefore not familiar with African culture.

amaBantu nations, of which the Zulu are a member, are ancestral worshipers. Whilst it is possible that warriors might have looted personal items during battle it is unlikely that they would have touched bodies after that. They show their cultural beliefs in this regard by disemboweling British soldiers in this battle to release their spirit.

The amaBantu are extremely scared of offending the spirits of the dead in case these spirits come back to harm them. When bad things happen to them (illness, bad luck, accidents or violence) they will always seek the assistance of the Sangoma to establish whether they have offended a spirit. If they are informed that this is the case they will do everything they can to placate this spirit.

I ran a mortuary in Zimbabwe as part of my overall management position for some years and can tell you that their fear of the dead is intense. We employed Africans from Malawi to work in the mortuary because they had a slightly different belief system. I have seen adults literally trembling with fear when collecting the remains of their relatives because they were near the bodies of people not related to themselves.

Hi Rob

Yes,yes Rob...after a battle those xho had been spiritually contamined by contact withsplit blood-those who had killed an ennemy , or been wounded themselves-
had to undergo complex purification rituals before they were able to rejoin civilian society.

Also the izinxweleha - those who had killed,troop down to a river to bathe under the watchfull eye of an inyanga...

They are still wearing items of clothing taken from their victims,and carrying theirblood-stained weapons,which they must do until the ceremony are complete...

They are wearing sprigs of wild asparagus in their hair as a badge of their condition...

These rituals took several days to perform , and involved regular bathing and sprinkling with protective medecines...

And the army could not assemble before the king until all were purified , in case their contamination affected him , and brought misfortune on the nation...


Cheers

Pascal

Pascal how long have you or did you live in Southern Africa?

Post battle rituals have absolutely nothing to do with plundering the dead some time afterward.

The recent discussion focused on the battle site pillaging that occurred in the weeks following the battle. Having lived and worked amongst these people all my life I can tell you that they would not touch the bodies.

Monsieur

Not need to live or have lived in South Africa to know that ...

Must be logical and read between the lines ...

If there were long ceremonies of purifiction after a battle, it was not going to defile himself after in touching old corpses ...

Cheers

Pascal

And there us being told not to look too much at secondary resources. and what have you posted.

Ian Knight
David Rattray
Phillip Bam
Ron Lock
Pete Quantrill
Adrian Greaves
Mike Snook
David Jackson
Julian Whybra
Professor Labrand
Creda Muttwa
His highness Prince Gatcha Buthelezi
DCF Moodie
Norris Newman
Frank Emery
Bertram Midford.
Ian Castle
And a host of others

For you to be right all of the above would have to be wrong

Just an observation from "Boast's" report.

ON COMPLETION OF MY DUTY THERE I FOLLOWED THE LINE TO FUGITIVES DRIFT. "ALTOGETHER 298 SEPERATE GRAVES WERE DUG AND USUALLY FROM 2 – 4 SKELETONS OR REMAINS WERE DEPOSITED IN EACH. IN ALL CASES WHERE ANY SINGLE GRAVE WAS MARKED WITH A CROSS OR OTHER TOKEN, WHEREBY IT COULD HEREAFTER BE IDENTIFIED,"

That seems to have been an awful lot of bodies. Even if we say there was two bodies to a grave, thats 588 bodies who were on there way to fugitives drift. We can add more as Boast says 2 - 4 bodies. Perhaps in the region of 700 plus.. Nearly half of the colum left at Isandlwana.

Littlehand. Following your posts with great interest. However I'm a bit lost with your last post. Can you explain the reasoning behind this post. I would like to stay on top with this discussion.

87 white and 90 black people escaped Isandlwanan.

Over 1,700 people from No.3 Column died. 700 is not half the strenth.

Boast reburied everyone in 1883, he wouldn't be able to tell if it was a whole Skeleton.

298 cairns are known about, Adrian Greaves had them all white washed.

OldH. Perhaps it helps to answer the question as to why the battle lasted so long in the camp area. Going by Boast's report a lot of men had managed to escape towards fugitives drift, thus depleting the amount of Zulus left fighting at Isandlwana. I would be more than happy if it was accepted that there were small pockets of resistance rather than last stands. Boast's maps also shows that the men were scattered far and wide.

The graves shown in and around the camp area, could as I have pointed out contain a mixture of individuals not necessary just British and Coloinal regiments but Zulu as well. Of course this could also be the case along fugitives drift.

Ok. Let's say there were 4 bodies to a grave along the trail 1192.

298 just along the trail, not counting those at Isandlwana. So we know there are more the 298 cains in total. Mr Greaves must have just had those along the trail white washed not all.

There are 298 graves all together.

Dr Greaves payed for everyone to be white washed.

The Colonials all died with Col. D.

Still waiting for the date on the report 24th ?

Read the Boast report, primary resource.

littlehand wrote:

Read the Boast report, primary resource.

Strange, whenever i post a primary source its Chinese whispers or the people are lying.

Not at all just look at the bigger picture. You seemed to hooked on Greaves & Whybra.

I have posted from Black, Bassage, Forbes, Norris-Newman. But they are of course lying.


Cheers

You posted this.

Here is his 14th of March vist

On Friday, the 14th of March, a party of volunteers, under Lientenant-Colonel Black, 2-24th Regiment, consisting of
Captain Symons. Captain Harvey, Lieutenant Banister, and Sergeant Tigar, of the 2-24th, Commandant Cooper, and twelve officers of the Natal Native Contingent, and ten of the Mounted Police, left Rorke's Drift, at 7 a.m., crossed the Buffalo on the pont, and rode through the Bashee Valley to make a reconnoissance of the camp at Isandwhlana. The scouts in advance saw fires burning in the kraals in the Bashee Valley, and disturbed three armed men with guns near the drift at the foot of the Isandwhlana Hill, who ran off at the approach of the party. Arrived on the now well-known and oft-described 'ridge,' a horrible scene of desolation was spread before them, and the still highly-tainted air filled their nostrils. After posting vedettes on all sides to guard against a surprise, they proceeded systemati- cally to examine the whole of the battle-field. Some thirty Zulus were seen running from the kraal in front of the camp, and when out of sight they fired several shots, with the intention, no doubt, of giving the alarm, and shortly afterwards signal-fires were seen burning on the hills. The Guard-tent of the 2-24th Regiment was first searched, in hopes of finding some trace of the two colours of the regiment, which had been left there on the morning of the 22nd of January last. The tent, colours, and belts had all been taken away. They next searched each camp in detail, and afterwards rode down by the side of the 'donga' that ran in front of the camp; and then still farther afield, where the different incidents and phases of the terrible battle were supposed to have taken place, and observed the following: The Zulu dead had all been removed. The waggons to the number of over 100 were uninjured, and stood for the most part where they were left. All the tents had been burnt, cut up and taken away, the poles only being left. Everything of value had been looted, and what had not been taken away had been stabbed vrith assegais. Sponges, boots, brushes of all descriptions, quantities of books, papers, photographs, gaiters, and various other articles were scattered about. Horses and mules were lyingy still tied to the piquet-ropes and waggons, and a good manyskeletons of oxen were scattered here and there. The bodies of our poor brave soldiers showed where the fury of the enemy
had overtaken them. They were all in and about the camp, or down the path the fugitives took; not a dozen could be in the whole surrounding of the camp, nor in the 'donga,' bearing out tiie testimony of survivors, who relate that while
the soldiers held the donga they suffered no loss. The greatest number counted lying together within a very small compass was sixty-eighty and these were in the left rear of the lst/24th, near the officers' mess-tent. The majority were 24th men, but there were some of other arms as well. As regards the state of the bodies, a subject of morbid but painful interest, they were in all conditions of horrible decay. Some were perfect skeletons; others that had not been stripped, or only partially so, were quite unapproachable, and the stench was sickening; with but fewexceptions, it was impossible to recognise any one, and the only officer that was seen was discovered by his clothes. It was considered that it would be three to four weeks before the bones could be collected and buried. Were an attempt to be made to do so now nothing could be done but to throw earth over the corpses. Close to the small heap of dead bodies before men- tioned, the colour-belt of the 1st/24th Regiment was found by Corporal Ghroschky, Natal Mounted Police; it was the most interesting thing found, though not perhaps the most valuable, as Captain Symons found a large bundle of cheques belonging to him that had not been opened. Having thoroughly searched
the camp, they proceeded to look for the two guns. One limber was found on the road leading down the valley towards the Izipesi Mountain, about a quarter of a mile to the front of the camp. The other limber, much broken, was found lying in the ravine where Lieutenant Curling, R.A., described the guns as having been upset and lost; and the team of six horses, all harnessed together, was lying by it; the ravine was so steep that one or two of the horses were suspended by the harness over the stream; both the guns and carriages had been removed. This ravine is about half a mile from 'the ridge,' and numbers of bodies were lying between the two. On the order to retire being given, the party returned by the same road, being twice fired upon, without effect, by two small parties of natives; once as they were leaving the ravine, and the second time from the 'krantzes' above the Bashee Valley.


And I posted this. Both primary sources.

"On the 14th March 1879, seven weeks after the battle, the first official visit to the battle-site took place. The party comprised Major W. Black, Commandant Cooper and Major J.G. Dartnell, accompanied by officers of the 24th of Foot, the Natal Native Contingent, and a party of the Natal Mounted Police. They had hardly arrived on the site when they came under fire and had to retire hastily to Rorke’s Drift, having accomplished nothing more than a quick glimpse of the scene of destruction and death (Knight 1992:124)"

He did a much longer one for his June vist, i belive the origianl is at Breacon.

littlehand wrote:

And I posted this. Both primary sources.

"On the 14th March 1879, seven weeks after the battle, the first official visit to the battle-site took place. The party comprised Major W. Black, Commandant Cooper and Major J.G. Dartnell, accompanied by officers of the 24th of Foot, the Natal Native Contingent, and a party of the Natal Mounted Police. They had hardly arrived on the site when they came under fire and had to retire hastily to Rorke’s Drift, having accomplished nothing more than a quick glimpse of the scene of destruction and death (Knight 1992:124)"

That is not a primary source. That was written by Ian Knight.

The one posted by me was a primary source, as Major Black himself, who was there, wrote it.

Your missing the point. According to the activites in Blacks report it would have taken a lot longer to establish what he has written, that the time he was actully there according to my account. They came under fire at left. Back does mention they came under fire, but doesn't mention retiring to RD.

So you know for a fact that Ian Knight hasn't posted from a primary source.
Not so long ago, you were telling me to read Mike Snooks book. Swings and roundabouts DB. And it all ways will be. Because the primary sources have been alter so much no one knows what the truth is.

littlehand wrote:

So you know for a fact that Ian Knight hasn't post from a primary source.

So Black, Maxwell, Tiger and all the others are lying ?

LH
There are by my computation 704 individuals (8 Europeans and 696 Africans - the primary sources are given on pp. 13-14, ES) who were present at Isandhlwana whose fate is unknown. I know of 90 Africans who escaped (primary sources given p. 14 fn. e and f, ES) but the contemporary estimate is that some 2-300 Africans escaped alive from Isandhlwana and lived to tell the tale. No-one knows what the true figure is but let's accept 2-300 as a guideline. So, let's say 110-210 unnamed Africans escaped out of the 696. That would leave between 486-586 unaccounted-for Africans' bodies for Boast to bury along the Fugitives' Trail (as well as any Europeans that got that far though there were precious few according to the other survivors).
This is all quite apart from the 471 African bodies that were buried in June (Blue books C2367) before Boast appeared on the scene.
When these figures are considered, the number of burials made by Boast does not seem excessive but perfectly in order, don't you think?

DB. Read my last post.

I personally think " Boast's" report is both remarkable and interesting.

'Thinking' isn't good enough. I have accounted for Boast's burials using primary source information. Disprove it.