Isandlwana, Last Stands

They're treated to join the biggest crowd. To then it would have been the most logical place to go. Where the ammunition was.

littlehand wrote:

They're treated to join the biggest crowd. To then it would have been the most logical place to go. Where the ammunition was.

That doesn't answer the question.

If they ran how did they stop the Zulus from over taking them during the withdrawl. ?

Higginson

i saw the 24th were retreating also, but very slowly

Curling last saw them retreating steadly.


Cheers

Littlehand
For once I have to disagree with you. I dont believe there was a general panic, individuals most certainly, but not a mass issue. The groups of men were to my mind admirably lead by their officers during the retreats across the battlefields. There are accounts of officers being passed by escaping units and waving cheerfully, Lt Pat Daly springs to mind.
The only remote chance you have of accusing an officer of running away would be Essex, Gardner, Smith Dorean, Cochran or Curling.

90th
Speaking for myself, I wouldnt take healthy debate personally, love it. Some you win some you loose.........bit like the English Cricket team, or is that some you loose and some you loose? :lol: :lol:

Steve
Enjoyed those titbits.

DB 14

What about those on the back of the saddle?

Tasker

To put the battlefield into perspective log onto Google Earth, the area is crystal clear, showing the mountain, conical hill the dongas and the cairns.
It will make your understanding of the area a tad better.

DB14

Im really suprised that you havent done the above allready?

Pascal
Possibly its my total lack of gallic undestanding but some times i really do not have a clue what your on about, for instances" The zulus moved the bodies". Why on earth would they want to do that?

Great Debate one and all now its time for a and a :sleep: :lol:

The British were retreating using what ammunition they had.
Again they had no choice but to fall back the Zulu were pushing them back. They may have delayed the Zulus "Stop" is the wrong word.
As soon as it was realised that all was lost those that could escape did, for the others they had no choice but to form up in groups this was only for self preservation, for all we know some these groups. may well have tryed to surrendered only to be killed.

By the time the 24th got back to camp, most of the men who would survive had already fled.

My point exactly. The men retreating back to camp wasn't to know this. at that point groups broke off trying to escape Astey being a good example if he had as you believe made a last stand, I think he would have selected better ground to do so.

They didn't choose a spot, they were trapped in the camp by the horns they had no where to go.

Anstey was trying to save the rements of his Company, he died in a rally square of 40 when they were finaly surounded.

Quote :

They didn't choose a spot, they were trapped in the camp by the horns they had no where to go.

And that,s why they were no last stands as we believe a last stand to be. They were trapped.

Quote :

Anstey was trying to save the rements of his Company, he died in a rally square of 40 when they were finaly surounded.

How do you know this. Is it because they found him among the other 40 bodies.

[quote="littlehand"]

Quote :

And that,s why they were no last stands as we believe a last stand to be. They were trapped.

The NC and NMP could all have escpaed, but chooses to die a hero's death.

Every man had a last stand that day.

Hi all

Regarding the 100 rounds of ammo, I was under the impression that the men carried 20 packed rounds per pouch = 40 rounds, and 30 loose rounds in the expense pouch, making a total of 70 rounds. If they carried another 30 rounds did they have another expense pouch in which to store the ammo, or did they put the extra rounds in their haversack (bread bag)?

I was also under the impression that 30 loose rounds per expense pouch was pushing it, and that it was more likely that it held only around 20 loose rounds, as trying to cram more loose rounds in would deform the thin cartridge cases, thus making them prone to jamming in the breech.

Martin.

And every Zulu that died that day made his last stand. But you haven't answered by question relating to Ansty.

littlehand wrote:

And every Zulu that died that day made his last stand. But you haven't answered by question relating to Ansty.

Well he was F company, Mostyn died in the camp so it simple to assume that he attempted to lead the survivers to
safty. He was corned, out numbered and died with his men.

Quote :

Assume

To authenticate by means of belief; to surmise; to suppose to be true, especially without proof.

Hi all

1 - The battle is already lost because of Durnford ... With his stupid orders for a deployment of Deleted.. No question of ammunitions or others excuses...Nobody ran out of ammunition in the battle...

Poor Pulleine, I begin to love more and more the latter ... Durnford is Custer in British version ... The same kind of errors ...

2 - 30 round by men of the reserve were in the reserves of ammunition wagons, not with the men ...

3 - There were 70 cartridges maximun on each infantrymen.

4 - There were 50 rounds maximun on each IMI and on each NNH cavalrymen.

5-There were 5 rounds maximun on each black NNC Infantrymen with a firearm and 50 rounds for their White officer( + ammunitions for theirs pistol...) and NCOs ...

6-There were 50 or 100 rounds maximun on each White Volunteers cavalrymen, according to the equipment worn ...1 or 2 bandoliers ? ammunitions for theirs pistol...

7 - For the gunners with rifles or carbines ?

8 - For the foot soldiers of the battery of rocket, maximun 70 cartridges ...

9 - How many cartridge for a guy who has a revolver in addition to a gun or a rifle?

Nobody ran out of ammunition in the battle, because they have learned too slowly for this, (normal for officers in trust, which relies too heavily on the qualities of MH and who confuse the Zulu with Xhosa) ... volley fire for the 24 th =slow rate of fire ,before Pulleine sound the retreat ...After for the last stands,independent fire ...

Durnford sent some guys to get ammunition because its cavalrymen were shooting in Independent Fire (normal for cavalrymen, with a quarter of the troopers keeps horses...)
Send guys get ammunition, did not mean that in had no ammunitions...

All this horrible massacre is the responsibility of Durnford.

1 - He imagines that the Zulu army will attack Chelmsford, really had to stick a layer for thinking this, Pulleine to still successfully prevented Durnford to take any infantry companies with him, otherwise it would have been happily butchered all on ...

2 - Durnford send ifirst 24 th infantry companies in front of Zulu, far from the camp, he could not wait to see if the zulus would come?

3- It ought also to dismantle the tents ...

4 - He leaves the rocket battery ... When cavalrymen are with troops on foot without defenses, they must go to their speed, or we do not take them ...

5-It provides for no voice for retirement ...

6-What the Zulu northwest of the camp, he does not care ...
He must have thought they had come for jogging ...

7- What would happened to Durnford, if he had survived, he had to doubt it ...

Le reste c'est de littérature...

Cheers

Pascal

Read his orders, he is clearded of leaving the camp.

Given the circumstances, he should no longer consider the orders.

If he did is that he was a disciplined moron without spirit innitiatives ...

Pascal

Just a quick post (time for bed here). Before you condemn outright the gallant Col Durnford, I would suggest that you get yourself a little better informed and read up on this brave fellow. You could start by reading 'Zulu Victory' by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill, or 'Zulu, the heroism and tragedy' by Saul David, they will give you a good idea of the underhanded way that Chelmsford and Crealock 'fitted up' and blamed Col Durnford for the disaster.

Hello

No need to have done the war school to understand that Durnford is as responsible as Chelmsford ... Poor Pulleine

Cheers

Pascal

Drummer boy
I think that rather than choosing to die a hero's death, the NC and NMP who died with Durnford replenished their ammunition from their camp and by this time the gap had closed - they were thus trapped and couldn't escape. The NNH replenished their ammunition at their waggons left by Vause to the south of the waggon park - by that time they were being cut off from the camp and couldn't get back to Durnford.

Martin
Haversack.

DB14

Nobody wants to die at Isandhlwana and especially not for the glory ...

They died because with the Zulu , no prisoners !

And Durnford is responsible, tactically speaking, of the defeat ..

Cheers

Pascal

Totally agree with J.W

DB. In reality no one would choose to stay where death is guaranteed 100%

Hi Little hand

Nobody wants to die at Isandhlwana and especially not for the glory ...

They died because with the Zulu , no prisoners !

And Durnford is responsible, tactically speaking, of the defeat ..

Cheers

Pascal

James Lonsdale ?

littlehand
Just for information, Disraeli's quotation you attach to the end of each of your postings contains an error. The last word should be 'dynasty'.

Hi Julian

Il aurait du dire a " very bad dynasty "

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal
Tu en as trop dit, ou pas assez.

Changed to "dynasty"

Now you really are perfect!

Julian

" A bàs toutes les dinasties " " vive la république " "A bàs les aristos " " vive la libertée " ect...

Cheers

Pascal

Drummer boy
Don't forget too that many of the NMP had lost their horses thanks to Stevens and so COULDN'T escape!

Stevens ?

Hi Julian

Thanks for that, I have often wondered if the men stored extra rounds in their haversacks.

Martin.

Pascal

I still think that you would benefit and gain some better understanding by reading more about the battle of Isandlwana and Col Durnford.

Col Durnford was in command of No 2 column, Glyn was in command of No 3 column, but Glyn took a back seat because of Chelmsford being with him.

Chelmsford divided No 3 column and left Pulleine in command of the camp, Durnford was ordered up from Rorke's Drift to the camp, there was NO order for him to take command.

If Durnford had been in command, he would have had no need to ASK Pulleine to LEND him two companies of the 24th (which Pulleine refused), he would have ordered it.

Pulleine was in command of the camp NOT Durnford, it was Pulleine that could, and should, have done something about the defence of the camp as soon as the first reports of large bodies of zulus were reported to him, and long before Durnford arrived, Pulleine did nothing.

The two people that are mostly to blame for this awful mess are firstly Chelmsford, and secondly Pulleine, to blame Col Durnford for this is wrong.

Littlehand= Perfect

Better bring a shiney apple on your next visit LH. :lol:

Pascal
Stevens let go the horses in the donga.
Martin
Well, though I agree with you about Chelmsford bearing a considerable amount of blame, I think it fair to say that all three bear responsibility. Are there degrees of blame/guilt?

Hi Julian

I understand what you mean, I think the main sticking point with Col Durnford will always be the rocket battery. But the way that I understand it (by reading various books on the subject), was that Durnford sent the rocket battery out before he left the camp, knowing that it was slow, and therefor he would catch up with it when he went to try to head off and turn the zulu's that he was duped into believing were heading towards Chelmsford to cut him off. My understanding is that he wanted the two coy's of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment to form a defensive line, so that the rocket battery and himself could fall back on if they needed to. It seems what he had in mind, was to try to head off and turn the zulu's away from Chelmsford, so that the rocket battery could hit them with the rockets, then if the zulu's headed towards them, they could retire behind the two companies of the 24th and all make a fighting retreat back to the camp. However, with Pulleine refusing the two companies, and with Durnford having already ordered the battery away, he was in a bit of a fix, but he still had to try to cut off the zulu's that he thought were heading towards Chelmsford. When a carbineer caught up with him and told him that he had been duped by the zulu's, he was livid, he did however manage to rescue what was left of the rocket battery (after their escort had left them to their fate). It appears that the rocket battery were led astry by a carbineer, and that the zulu's were hidden from their view until it was too late, the escort legged it and left the rocket battery to try to defend themselves against overwhelming odds, but thanks to Durnford men, what was left of them were rescued. I think that Col Durnford was an honourable man, and I believe that he had the best intentions in mind, but that fate and ill luck (and the zulu's), played a nasty trick on him that sad day. So I do see your point about sharing the blame, but with Col Durnford, I think it was more a case of bad luck rather than bad judgement.

Martin.

I've never heard of that before Julain

How did they get back to camp wth no horses ?



Cheers

Martin

The poor Pulleine was unfit to command troops in battle because he was an administrative ...


A quick question ... What would have happened if your Durnford had survived, it would have been congratulated?

Cheers

Pascal

He wasn't allowed to survive, rank prevented officers from leaving, still a good few did.

He would have been court martiled, his family put to disgrace, life over.



Cheers

Ah it was some justice in that time ...

And he would have reproached what? in your opinion?

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Stevens ?

[quote]

Bonsoir,

STEVENS was a trumpeter of the Natal Mounted Police - a survivor of Isdandlwana
See on t his site a photo of him (with a group) .
A post by Barry (i think).

Cheers

Ymob

Drummer boy
They doubled up on others' horses or ran alongside holding on to a stirrup or pommel. That was the usual way of getting footsoldiers away out of danger.
Re the photo that was mentioned of Stevens - I can't find it here but I presume this is one of him as an old man which I have, I don't know of a contemporary one. His family lived quite close to me - I often drive by where they lived.
Others
I think you're judging Pulleine too harshly. His only crime was to obey orders. As for a court martial - I don't think so - remember Pulleine was NOT the senior officer in camp (that was Durnford)! He was not responsible for the layout and defence of the camp (that was Clery and Glyn in that order). He was not responsible for the troop disposition in case of attack (that was Chelmsford). He was not responsible for the initial sortie on to the plateau and across the plain (that was Durnford). He was not responsible for inadequate scouting (that was Chelmsford). He was not responsible for not responding to a developing situation. By the time he could, Durnford had returned, and was in charge again (wasn't it his order to withdraw the line in order to concentrate the troops?). He was not responsible for conflicting orders (that was Chelmsford/Durnford). He was not responsible for the juggling act he had to perform that morning to keep everyone happy and all balls in the air (that was Chelmsford/Durnford). He was not responsible for the ferocity of the Zulu attack (that was the Zulu).
What was he responsible for?
I'll answer my own question. He was responsible for his men, the honour of the regiment, and doing his duty. And that he did, by staying, dying with them, and allegedly trying to get his beloved battalion's colours to safety. Apologies for the sentimentality but all in all I feel rather sorry for him.

Pascal

In an odd sort of way (and although it probably would have brought disgrace to them both), it would have been very interesting to see what the outcome of a courts martial would have been if both Pulleine and Durnford had survived the battle. Durnford would still have had his orders to show that Chelmsford had not ordered him to take command of the camp, and Pulleine would have been able to provide some very useful information about Chelmsfords orders. The cover up by Crealock and Chelmsford could never have happened if both these officers had survived, but no doubt these two, Crealock and Chelmsford (the gruesome twosome), would have concocted something to throw the blame elsewhere.

Martin.

Martin
Agreed

Julian

Could you post the account, it sounds intresting.



Cheers

[quote="Julian Whybra"

Re the photo that was mentioned of Stevens - I can't find it here but I presume this is one of him as an old man which I have, I don't know of a contemporary one. His family lived quite close to me - I often drive by where they lived.

[quote]Bonsoir Monsieur WHYBRA,

You can see a photo of STEVENS on the section "Colonial Regiments wich served in the Zulu War of 1879" / Post: "Subject: NMP detail involved with the Princess Eugenie , ex Empress of the French visit to Natal in June 1880. Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:23 pm"

Respectueusement.

Frédéric

Julian
I will explore your contentions ( comes from David Jackson ) I assume, that Durnford was responsible for the troops being sent onto the ridge. Unfortunatly time precludes at present for me to assemble the counter argument to Essex.

Pulleine was as you quite rightly demonstrate not guilty of a lot of issues. A key one is missed however. That being: Was he guilty of not being militarily astute enough to recognise the problem and adapt from the standing orders. Therefore possibly saving his command. Smith Dorean did it it later life.

A tad disingenuous to consider a passage of command when Durnford returned. Hardly the time nor place. Cant accept that argument.

Regards

Hi all

Julian told me, "Stevens let go the horses in the donga."

It's amazing and their owners were unable to retreat?

And he survived!
And if this case there has been known, he was punished?

To my good Pulleine, except sound the retreat of imperial troops, he gave what orders in battle?

Cheers

Pascal

Martin
"its my understanding that Durnford wanted the two troops as a defensive screen"
Ive seen you post that statement before and never got around to questioning it. Durnfords request was for two companies to accompany him, when that was refused he modified it to been supported in case of trouble. It would be my thoughts that Durnford actually wanted the troops to join him. And therin lies the biggest conundrum of the battle, why?

He was a leader of a fast moving, almost a strike column, with some 250 men, well armed and horsed. He sends 150 of them of to reccon, then doesnt wait for them to get back before exploding of into the veld. Wanting to take a slow moving rocket battery, a detachment of NNC and potentially two companies of imperial troops? All of who would be the yin to his yang so to speak. He needs to act fast to protect his commanders posterior, so he sumises ( I assume he does the way he heads of in such a hurry). And yet takes a ponderous column with him, leaving a very large component of his strike fource behind.

Does no one else see that dichotomy?

Are those the actions of a clear thinking military man? Or the actions of a man with a blood rush to the head, thoughts of grandeu, could Mike Snook be right in calling him a cowboy?

Sorry digrest drastically.

Hi all

Durnford's actions are incomprehensible ...

He wants to join Chelmsford as soon as possible and yet he wants to take the foot troops with him ...

And he goes with only 2/5 th of NNH?

And neglected even the IMI and all the mounted volunteers of Natal ...

Hussar Mentality

Cheers

Pascal

Drummer boy
I'll send it to you.